Paris summit

[bcm666]

I have been invites as one of quite a few to a summit in Paris about the scrum and specifically the new trials. Anyone got anything they think should be passed on from the non elite referees to Mr Jutge and Mr Jeffrey?

 

[Jacko]

When is the summit Brian?? I think the changes seem reasonable - just need to see them in real action. A summit after a couple of months of rugby would be ideal.

Out of curiosity (and apologies if you have already posted them and I've missed them), what are your thoughts on the changes being brought in for this season??

 

[Simon Thomas]

Brian

Great that you have been asked to attend.

As Jacko says we need a month of experience to feed back, so end September would be good.

When is the Paris summit ?

Simon

 

[crossref]

I have been invites as one of quite a few to a summit in Paris about the scrum and specifically the new trials. Anyone got anything they think should be passed on from the non elite referees to Mr Jutge and Mr Jeffrey?

You should mention the considerable confusion about whether the referee must give an instruction to put the ball in, and if so what it should be, and whether its a command to put the ball in or an indication to put it in when ready (see the thread here on crouch bind set training)

 

[Robert Burns]

I'd like to know why the current changes (which seem to work very well at our level) have not been given the chance of more than one season, and why the elite guys have such a hard time of getting the stability that we so easily achieve.

With the new bind I see a couple of issues:

1, Props will use the pre-bind to pull themselves together, which will create instability.
2, Because of the pre bind, a long bind is no longer possible, so the prop can easily twist.

How are they going to stop this?

And lastly, what's next when the elite boys fail to manage the requirements? Why do we keep changing the laws for everyone because the top 5% (or possibly smaller) can't/wont do it?

 

[Dickie E]

Brian, I'd like to thank you for having the thought to seek our opinion. An English gentleman, who would have believed it? :eng:

 

[Browner]

Why is a 'HIT' needed at all? The belief that 'depowering the hit' will solve all the resetting issues of the Elite Scrum still needs to be seen. My prediction is that pre-bind will worsen other issues
1, Props are unlikely to reposition their pre-bind grip [as to do so weakens them v their opponent] shorter binds mean collapse likelihood increases.
2, Short binds increase leverage opportunity & twisting/boreing.
Whilst understanding that the game is led from the top down - 95% of rugby doesn't have re-setting problems [last season I had only x2 collapsed scrums all season] I anticipate having to penalise/reset more scrums as a result of this 'improvement' ................ Ps... Law 20.5 "As soon as the front rows have come together ** the scrum half must throw in the ball without delay" ** insert and the scrum is both stable & not moving forward then ....

 

[crossref]

it really shouldn't be a 'summit', should it, given the subject matter ..... a 'huddle' .

 

[Waspsfan]

Or a scrummit!

 

[OB..]

Re: Crouch, Bind, Set training

(1) Guidance on how the referee may/must indicate to the scrum half that he can now throw the ball in.

(2) Confirmation that the forwards may not shove until the scrum half has released the ball, in particular that they should not use anything said by the referee as a trigger.

(3) Confirmation that after the referee has given the go-ahead, the scrum half will be allowed a reasonable delay to set the timing with his hooker.

(4) The RFU once defined a straight feed as one where some part of the ball is over the mid-line. Is that universally accepted?

 

[Dickie E]

Re: Crouch, Bind, Set training

(4) The RFU once defined a straight feed as one where some part of the ball is over the mid-line. Is that universally accepted?

It is universally accepted that that is what the RFU said

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Re: Crouch, Bind, Set training

(1) Guidance on how the referee may/must indicate to the scrum half that he can now throw the ball in.

(2) Confirmation that the forwards may not shove until the scrum half has released the ball, in particular that they should not use anything said by the referee as a trigger.

(3) Confirmation that after the referee has given the go-ahead, the scrum half will be allowed a reasonable delay to set the timing with his hooker.

(4) The RFU once defined a straight feed as one where some part of the ball is over the mid-line. Is that universally accepted?

D'accord.

Can the SH put the ball in if the scrum is S&S or does he/she have to wait for the all clear from the referee?

Will referees be insisting on the use of Law 20.3 (e)

[LAWS]Both the loose head and tight head props may alter their bind providing they do so in accordance with this Law.[/LAWS]

post "set" to achieve long(er) binds?

I'm like most on here not really an issue in the weeds - I've had one match with scrum issues (re-sets) in 6 years.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Brian, I'd like to thank you for having the thought to seek our opinion. An English gentleman, who would have believed it? :eng:

People brought up in Halifax are all like that!epper:

 

[FlipFlop]

For me:

Why haven't they considered (or trialled on a larger scale) the French lower level engagement of "Crouch; Engage; Stop; Play". Would reduce the hit as there is a need for stationary....

Why can't they make the "Square and Stationary" more important than the feed? (i.e. must happen first, before the feed)

When are we going to see the feed policed properly at higher levels?

Brian - the more answers you can get, the better!

As for the new sequence. The pre-bind was specifically ruled out before due to players using that to twist etc their oppo. What has changed with this logic? The pre-bind will of necessity be a shorter bind, is this really a good thing. Does changing the words of "Ready Steady Go" really make any difference?

 

[tim White]

Can you emphasise the problems it causes grass-roots rugby when the IRB states specific interpretation of the Laws and then allows the elite game to vary/ignore them. Similarly the recent discussions on NH/SH interpretations of the Tackle law -as Global Authority could they please strive for some form of consistency around the world.

And why can't their website remember my password?

 

[Taff]

.... The pre-bind will of necessity be a shorter bind, is this really a good thing.

I honestly can't see that being much of an issue, as the props can still re-bind after the "Set".

 

[Rushforth]

Can you emphasise the problems it causes grass-roots rugby when the IRB states specific interpretation of the Laws and then allows the elite game to vary/ignore them.

This above all.

Although it was "necessary" to get rid of deliberate wheels (i.e. those leaving the attacking back row closer to the opponent's lines), the law-making has led to a travesty where neither side is hooking, the defending side is trying to reverse the scrum, whilst the attackers will actively co-operate in the hope they might get a penalty!

I'm fairly sure I've had more grass-roots experience than bcm as a hooker, but hardly played there at all for my last 10 years (LH and TH as needed).

In short: as long as safety is improved and the "hit" is made manageable BY EXAMPLE from the elite, I'll be happy. Perhaps even play again!

 

[didds]

I'd like to know why the current changes (which seem to work very well at our level) have not been given the chance of more than one season, and why the elite guys have such a hard time of getting the stability that we so easily achieve.

that's it in a nutshell really.

why was yet another change necessary when everything seems already available under the laws as they stood that were being ignored.

however, Brian and Vickery et al already asked these questions to Jeffrey on Radio 5 to no avail so we won't get any change.

Just give em shit really Brian. please.

didds

 

[ddjamo]

I think you know exactly what to ask them brian. we look forward to the the outcome of the summit.

 

[Account Deleted]

I'd like to know why the current changes (which seem to work very well at our level) have not been given the chance of more than one season, and why the elite guys have such a hard time of getting the stability that we so easily achieve.

With the new bind I see a couple of issues:

1, Props will use the pre-bind to pull themselves together, which will create instability.
2, Because of the pre bind, a long bind is no longer possible, so the prop can easily twist.

How are they going to stop this?

And lastly, what's next when the elite boys fail to manage the requirements? Why do we keep changing the laws for everyone because the top 5% (or possibly smaller) can't/wont do it?

Spot on. Also why do the explanatory videos show crooked feeds?