Penalty for playing the ball on the ground?

[vidiego]

This is what happened to me last weekend:

Black 12 attacked and was tackled; the ball bounced backwards and black 4 dove and tried to catch the ball, he touched it but could not grab it (the ball bounced backwards one more time). While lying on the ground the ball bounced back near to him and he grabbed the ball and passed it (all this happened in 3 seconds tops.)

I awarded a penalty against black because I considered that he was playing the ball whilst on the ground (lying on the ground). I know that a player who has the ball and goes to the ground can pass the ball immediately (among other options).

Thoughts?

 

[Dickie E]

He is entitled to get up with the ball or pass the ball provided he does so immediately. Law 14. I would not make a distinction between player going to ground to gather ball or ball coming to player who is already on the ground.

 

[Taff]

For what its worth I agree with Dickie.

What may confuse the issue is that a player on the ground can't tackle a ball carrier.

 

[Simon Thomas]

did he deprive any opposition players from getting possession ? if not and he passed the ball immediately play on

 

[Dickie E]

For what its worth I agree with Dickie.

You make it sound like a shameful thing

 

[Dixie]

did he deprive any opposition players from getting possession ? if not and he passed the ball immediately play on

But what if he did? From Simon's answer, we might infer that by playing the ball on the ground, the Black player committed an offence, but as it did not materially impact on the game, we should let it slide.

If that is Simon's view (i.e. that an offence was committed), then I agree with him. I see a huge difference between (on the one hand) falling to gather the ball, and (on the other hand) a player on the ground playing the ball. The impact of the latter can be seen in the following scenario:

Blue #15 jinks through three tackles to get within 8m of the line, where a despairing tap tackle puts him off balance. He falls, losing the ball backwards. Red 15, who is the last defender, has been wrong-footed and has fallen to ground. The ball comes within reach, and he sees Blue 12 about to pick up - a clear try if he succeeds. To thwart that, Red 15 swats the ball towards the touchline, slightly backwards, where Red 11 manages to fall on it and slide into touch.

We know that the law is inadequately written here - there is no direct prohibition against a player playing the ball on the ground. The closest we can come is the definitions in law 14:

[LAWS]The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.[/LAWS]

In asking whether this really is a game-wide statement or a vague bit of waffle applicable to Law 14 only, we need to look elsewhere. We see in law 15 a prohibition against a grounded player tackling a ball-carrier:

[LAWS]15.6(i) After a tackle, any player on the ground must not tackle an opponent or try to tackle an opponent.
Sanction: Penalty kick[/LAWS]

If you can't tackle a ball carrier while on the ground, I an happy suggesting that neither can you prevent a man on his feet from playing the ball by taking it away from him. In my scenario above, Penalty Try, YC. In the OP's scenario, penalty - unless there were no oppo players around, in which case perhaps play on as the offence was not material.

 

[crossref]

I would not make a distinction between player going to ground to gather ball or ball coming to player who is already on the ground.

that's interesting - i would make a distinction between a player going to ground with the ball or to gather the ball, and ball bouncing along toward a player already on the ground..

In the second case: I think if a player's on the ground he's out of the game and needs to get up before he plays the ball.

However I am ready to adapt my thinking if I am out on a limb here.

 

[Davet]

Red 12 is on the floor - slight injury, no physio in attendance. Ball is ahead of him, and Back 15 fly hacks it. Ball skids along the ground straight into the arms of Red 12 - still laid on the floor, who grabs it and pops it to Red 13 who is onside close behind him and approaching at a rate of knots.

Decision?

 

[Dixie]

Red 12 is on the floor - slight injury, no physio in attendance. Ball is ahead of him, and Back 15 fly hacks it. Ball skids along the ground straight into the arms of Red 12 - still laid on the floor, who grabs it and pops it to Red 13 who is onside close behind him and approaching at a rate of knots.

Decision?

PK, wry smile, signal with palm pointing up, hand elevated and lowered several times (as per Nigel Owens in Argentina).

 

[Taff]

... In the second case: I think if a player's on the ground he's out of the game and needs to get up before he plays the ball. However I am ready to adapt my thinking if I am out on a limb here.

But if there isn't an opposition player trying to go for the ball as well, what's the harm? Obviously if there was an opponent (on his feet) trying the grab the ball and the man on the floor was interfereing with it, then the man on his feet gets priority.

 

[Dixie]

But if there isn't an opposition player trying to go for the ball as well, what's the harm? Obviously if there was an opponent (on his feet) trying the grab the ball and the man on the floor was interfereing with it, then the man on his feet gets priority.

So you agree that it's a PK offence that can be reduced to "play on" in some unusual circumstances?

 

[FlipFlop]

At teh weekend (either Lions or Eng v Arg game) there was a clear case of ball coming out of ruck, hitting player lying on ground, who grabbed it, and threw to a team mate. Prevented oppo playing it.

Think it was in the Eng v Arg game, so it woul dhave been Nigel Owens who allowed it, without so much as a comment....

 

[talbazar]

Sorry I feel lazy to look into the law book but what would be the law reference saying a player cannot play the ball when on the ground in open play?
I mean with a sanction attached to it...

 

[talbazar]

Ok, went through the law book a little. Law 14 (ball on the ground - no tackle) and law 15 (tackle).
There is nothing preventing black 4 in the above mentioned scenario to play the ball according to me.
Did I miss something?

 

[OB..]

But if there isn't an opposition player trying to go for the ball as well, what's the harm?

If a fullback knocks-on slightly, with no opponent anywhere near, I think everybody agrees we give the scrum. I would apply the same principle here.

 

[pwhaling]

I think this is one of those scenarios where the law spells out what you can so instead of what you can't':
Law 14 allows a player to go to ground to gather the ball. It also states " The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.", which I think it is fair to infer the law Lords intentions.

 

[Taff]

So you agree that it's a PK offence that can be reduced to "play on" in some unusual circumstances?

Well not quite, because I'm not 100% convinced that playing the ball off the ground (while unopposed) is an offence.

If a fullback knocks-on slightly, with no opponent anywhere near, I think everybody agrees we give the scrum. I would apply the same principle here.

FK or PK? It's more of a technical "offence" than dangerous play. IIRC tackling a player while off your feet is a PK offence. A PK for this feels a bit harsh to me if I'm honest. I could be all to pot on this, but in my head it seems similar to an accidendal offside player playing the ball and depriving the opposition of an advantage.

Sorry I feel lazy to look into the law book but what would be the law reference saying a player cannot play the ball when on the ground in open play? I mean with a sanction attached to it...

Apart from the general principle that the game is to be played by players on their feet, I admit I'm struggling to think of one. If a player on the ground was holding on to the ball and an oppo on his feet feet was trying to grab it, I'd have no problem ... but if he's trying to play the ball with nobody else around, I must admit my gut reaction would be "play on".

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

so it woul dhave been Nigel Owens who allowed it, without so much as a comment....

No way!

 

[crossref]

I think this is one of those scenarios where the law spells out what you can so instead of what you can't':
Law 14 allows a player to go to ground to gather the ball. It also states " The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.", which I think it is fair to infer the law Lords intentions.

hmm - so what do you think were their intentions?

 

[pwhaling]

I think this is one of those scenarios where the law spells out what you can so instead of what you can't':
Law 14 allows a player to go to ground to gather the ball. It also states " The Game is to be played by players who are on their feet.", which I think it is fair to infer the law Lords intentions.

hmm - so what do you think were their intentions?

Get to your feet then play the ball
(there was more to my original post, but I deleted it while typing on my phone)