Why is it that when a player taking a quick FK/Pk screws it up somehow by either not going through the mark and taking it from the wrong place or not tapping and going correctly that some refs just get the player to retake and other penalise by giving the oppo a scrum ?
Penalty/free kick error ?
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Toby Warren
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Because they are wrong in law, but correct in empathy?
As you go up the levels you rarely (if ever) see this happen.
At Old farts 4th XV you may see a little more leeway given
As you go up the levels you rarely (if ever) see this happen.
At Old farts 4th XV you may see a little more leeway given
winchesterref
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How I go about this is-
Ask them to take it correctly at the brief
Tell them to take it correctly if they fail to do so during the game, 1 warning
Penalise them if they do it again by awarding a scrum to the opposition
As yet we haven't got to the "Penalise/scrum" part yet
Ask them to take it correctly at the brief
Tell them to take it correctly if they fail to do so during the game, 1 warning
Penalise them if they do it again by awarding a scrum to the opposition
As yet we haven't got to the "Penalise/scrum" part yet
Browner
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jonesp92, adults all know, this is just pandering to using up their 'allowances'.......... i had a player ask me where his warning was for a crooked feed, ! , i told him that he had it the 1st time he ever put the ball in crooked.....likely years ago....... i'm not a fan of two warnings only then consequences ethos for such trivia, ping the 1st occassion and all players learn quick enough.
winchesterref
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I think it is overly pedantic to immediately penalise someone for going from the wrong place when they are displaying some positive behaviour in wanting to get on with the game quickly, just my opinion.
And in my experience as a player I prefer when a referee shows some empathy rather than being a bit of a law book jobsworth... I don't know a single player who doesn't prefer that either.
Edit: I am not referring specifically to you Browner as a jobsworth, just making it clear
And in my experience as a player I prefer when a referee shows some empathy rather than being a bit of a law book jobsworth... I don't know a single player who doesn't prefer that either.
Edit: I am not referring specifically to you Browner as a jobsworth, just making it clear
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Waspsfan
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Red team commit a nasty piece of foul play. Penalty blue. Blue 9 looking to be positive taps and goes but from 5 metres in front of the mark. Peep - 'sorry 9, the mark is here' - take it again.
You cannot really think the right end result of the above should be a scrum to red?
You cannot really think the right end result of the above should be a scrum to red?
Browner
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but if you stop them and bring them back you are being just that in a different guise!, why not let the hooker have another go at throwing the ball straight, or the 9 a 2nd attempt at a straight feed? or restart kicks get a second attempt? of course attacking players want to ignore technical compliance if they had their choice 40% of the book would be ignored .........
winchesterref
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The poor throw is poor skill, the same reason they don't get a second chance to throw a pass or catch the ball
The feed at the scrum is negative play and removes competition for the ball, hence no 2nd chance
The quick tap is a positive move to get the game started again, although it has some restrictions applied to how this happens. As a team wants to be positive and move on I think on balance they deserve a chance. And also as above, a penalty is awarded as a result of a misdemeanour from the opposition, overly draconian to allow them to benefit from a minor mistake by the attacking side
The feed at the scrum is negative play and removes competition for the ball, hence no 2nd chance
The quick tap is a positive move to get the game started again, although it has some restrictions applied to how this happens. As a team wants to be positive and move on I think on balance they deserve a chance. And also as above, a penalty is awarded as a result of a misdemeanour from the opposition, overly draconian to allow them to benefit from a minor mistake by the attacking side
winchesterref
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No, it is concepts like materiality that affect referee consistency.
Either offences are refereed 100% strictly to the laws and we play for 10 minutes a game and have 2000 stoppages, or we consider materiality and some offences will slip by or be ignored for the purposes of having some rugby instead of all the whistling
Why some refs pull them up and some don't is easy; I guess they either feel it's immaterial or they have a bit more empathy. Eg if a side are losing by say 45 points and they take a quick tap and run 6" in front of the mark, let's be blunt a referee is going to look a sad sod if he pulls them up for it and gives a scrum to the opposition. According to the lawbook he should - but common sense tells you he shouldn't.
I once gave a try near a left hand post - approx 2' in. The kicker plonked the ball smack in front of the posts ie about 2m further towards the middle than he should have. I admit I wasn't thinking straight and while he was waiting for the tee I moved the ball about 2m in line with where the try was scored ..... I'll never forget the mumbling of "Oh FFS Ref" from a number of the opposition players. Even the opposition were happy that it was close enough.
Waspsfan
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Browner you have a lot to learn about refereeing. Materiality, empathy, management, contextual judgment - it is not just about the law book. Do you actually referee? Because this approach suggests you don't and your profile is vague to say the least. These principles are covered in the ELRA - have you done this?
Superb comments guys. I suppose the lack of agreement is proof of how I've seen this go two ways so often. The clip below will show tolerance isn't always at the Drunk Vets Vs Scotchbreathians V's level
Clip 2 South Africa vs England 79min Tap kick wrong place - YouTube
► 0:15► 0:15
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv5Mox6Jhag
Clip 2 South Africa vs England 79min Tap kick wrong place - YouTube
► 0:15► 0:15
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cv5Mox6Jhag
I will generally give a wrong kick/off knee = turnover everytime as they know this one.
However if they tap and go quickly (kind of like immediately), but more than 1m from the mark (or behind me - I warn them of this in pre-brief) and in a not "stupid" place (i.e. not 50m further upfield for example), and quickly enough that I haven't had time to make the mark, then they go again.
But I want to be in a position where if I pull them back it is for a good reason. Moving them 5cm will lose all my respect from the players and spectators.
What I'm trying to work out is:
honest mistake while trying to go quickly and play rugby (why we're all there) = retake
deliberate trying to gain unfair advantage = turnover
But I generally say at PMB where they can go from. And will communicate if I see it to try and prevent wrong spot.
However if they tap and go quickly (kind of like immediately), but more than 1m from the mark (or behind me - I warn them of this in pre-brief) and in a not "stupid" place (i.e. not 50m further upfield for example), and quickly enough that I haven't had time to make the mark, then they go again.
But I want to be in a position where if I pull them back it is for a good reason. Moving them 5cm will lose all my respect from the players and spectators.
What I'm trying to work out is:
honest mistake while trying to go quickly and play rugby (why we're all there) = retake
deliberate trying to gain unfair advantage = turnover
But I generally say at PMB where they can go from. And will communicate if I see it to try and prevent wrong spot.
If a player is going to take a quick tap, the emphasis is on "quick", so he may well have to guess where the correct spot is. Unless you think the player is cheating in some sense, then calling him back will lose the element of surprise, so the benefit is lost. That seems fair for an understandable misapprehension. Once is happenstance, twice is coincidence, the third time it's enemy action. A bit like repeat infringements ...
It may also depend on the circumstances. Any scrumhalf should know that if a PK is awarded at a scrum, he cannot take the tap from the side of the scrum.
It may also depend on the circumstances. Any scrumhalf should know that if a PK is awarded at a scrum, he cannot take the tap from the side of the scrum.
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I tell them pre match:
If you want to go quick, that's fine.
Ensure it's within about a meter of the mark, but not in front
Ball leaves your hand
I can see you.
Fail any of those three, turnover.
I think it's a fair deal. I've been explicit about the degree of latitude I'm affording them. If they go past, it's legit to say they're taking the piss and deserve the turnover
If you want to go quick, that's fine.
Ensure it's within about a meter of the mark, but not in front
Ball leaves your hand
I can see you.
Fail any of those three, turnover.
I think it's a fair deal. I've been explicit about the degree of latitude I'm affording them. If they go past, it's legit to say they're taking the piss and deserve the turnover
Dickie E
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what are your thoughts on ball not leaving "kicker's" hands? Play on, retake or scrum to opposition?
The tap has to be done correctly no matter what the grade especially when it's juniors. Call them back to take it correctly so they learn. Less sympathetic with seniors who should know better.
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I'm not quite so pedantic, it's not a contest for the ball, it's just a restart to get the game going again, everyone wants to get the game going again.
If it happens I'll have a quick word on the run to clean it up, next time they may not be so lucky.
Serious Questions though:
Why does the law require the ball have to left the hands?
Is that so it fulfills the requirements to be a kick? What affect does it have on the game if it doesn't (apart from allowing pedants to claim a turn over)?
Is this a big of history/tradition that the game no longer needs as the referee never wins in these circumstances. Pull it back, you're too fussy and not letting the game flow, just play on and your ignoring a law.
Why is it really needed?
If it happens I'll have a quick word on the run to clean it up, next time they may not be so lucky.
Serious Questions though:
Why does the law require the ball have to left the hands?
Is that so it fulfills the requirements to be a kick? What affect does it have on the game if it doesn't (apart from allowing pedants to claim a turn over)?
Is this a big of history/tradition that the game no longer needs as the referee never wins in these circumstances. Pull it back, you're too fussy and not letting the game flow, just play on and your ignoring a law.
Why is it really needed?