Penalty/free kick error ?

[Ian_Cook]

I disagree with some of what has been said here.

Taking the kick from the wrong place is not treated the same as not kicking the ball a visible distance.

There is no Law that allows the referee to order a scrum if the ball is kicked from a place other than the mark. At all levels, the referee simply brings the player back to the mark to retake the kick.

[LAWS]21.2 WHERE PENALTY AND FREE KICKS ARE TAKEN
(a) The kicker must take the penalty or free kick at the mark or anywhere behind it on a line
through the mark. If the place for a penalty or free kick is within 5 metres of the opponents’
goal line, the mark for the kick is 5 metres from the goal line, opposite the place of
infringement.

(b) When a penalty or free kick is awarded in in-goal, the mark for the kick is in the field of
play, 5 metres from the goal line, in line with the place of infringement.
Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum 5 metres from the goal
line in line with the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.[/LAWS]

21.2 (a) has NO attached sanction. There is only a sanction for 21.2 (b), when a a kick is incorrectly taken in-goal. If you award a scrum to the opposition when a player takes a quick tap from the wrong place when that PK or FK was awarded in the FoP, then you are making up your own Law.

This is different from the situation where a player doesn't take the kick with a proper kick or an incorrect type of kick as outlined in 21.3 and 21.4

Knee Bounce/Heel tap
Wrong ball
Not a clear kick
Player not behind the ball
etc

All these should result in a scrum.

 

[Robert Burns]

I don't agree with you Ian, I believe the first word 'ANY' in that Sanction means it applies to either.

I've never heard anyone interpret it the way you have just described.

 

[Dickie E]

Why does the law require the ball have to left the hands?

It is the only way that the opposition (standing 10 metres away) can know that the game has recommenced. That seems sensible to me.

 

[Dickie E]

I don't agree with you Ian, I believe the first word 'ANY' in that Sanction means it applies to either.

I've never heard anyone interpret it the way you have just described.

Ian seems to have a point. The sanction is:

Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum 5 metres from the goal
line in line with the mark.

If it did apply to 21.2(a) then an incorrectly taken PK on half way would result in a "scrum 5 metres from the goal line in line with the mark"

 

[FlipFlop]

Serious Questions though:

Why does the law require the ball have to left the hands?
Is that so it fulfills the requirements to be a kick? What affect does it have on the game if it doesn't (apart from allowing pedants to claim a turn over)?
Is this a big of history/tradition that the game no longer needs as the referee never wins in these circumstances. Pull it back, you're too fussy and not letting the game flow, just play on and your ignoring a law.
Why is it really needed?

The law requires a kick. Why insist on it being a kick? A kick is harder than a tap to the foot. I have seen numerous times when someone tryig to go quickly, messes up the kick, slowing down the quick restart, and giving the defence extra time, time they wouldn't have had had I allowed a "fake" tap.

This is one I will insist on for a quick tap, and everytime I pull someone up on it, the players shout at the infringing player, not at me. Not once have I been accused of being pedantic for this one. Everytime the player gets the blame from his team mates for being dumb.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I don't agree with you Ian, I believe the first word 'ANY' in that Sanction means it applies to either.

I've never heard anyone interpret it the way you have just described.

Strange, because I have never, ever seen a referee at any level of the game award a scrum when a player has taken a tap kick in the wrong place

As Dickie E correctly points out, if you apply the sanction listed in 21.2 (b)....

[LAWS]Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum 5 metres from the goal
line in line with the mark. The opposing team throws in the ball.[/LAWS]

...to 21.2 (a), then you are going to take the scrum all the way to the kicking team's 5m line for a kick take from in front of the mark on half way. Besides the fact that this looks wrong, which 5m line are you going to?

Not all Laws have a sanction, they simply explain what needs to be done. IMO, 21.2 (b) is one of those.

 

[The Fat]

Strange, because I have never, ever seen a referee at any level of the game award a scrum when a player has taken a tap kick in the wrong place

Nor have I.
I have only ever awarded a scrum for an incorrectly taken tap kick.

 

[OB..]

It is the only way that the opposition (standing 10 metres away) can know that the game has recommenced. That seems sensible to me.

I agree

 

[Robert Burns]

Ian seems to have a point. The sanction is:

If it did apply to 21.2(a) then an incorrectly taken PK on half way would result in a "scrum 5 metres from the goal line in line with the mark"

Good point, teach me to read the law properly, and I have never given a scrum for the wrong mark either.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Nor have I.
I have only ever awarded a scrum for an incorrectly taken tap kick.

Yes. An incorrectly taken kick is a skill failure, like throwing a forward pass or knocking the ball on, so a scrum is a fair sanction

However, taking the kick in the wrong place isn't down to skill, its about trying to get on with the game, to effectively gain a fair advantage through quick thinking and quick action. The "sanction" ,if you like, for getting it wrong is being made to come back and do it again from the correct place, and thereby losing that advantage and the element of surprise.

 

[OB..]

Not all Laws have a sanction, they simply explain what needs to be done. IMO, 21.2 (b) is one of those.

[LAWS]Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.[/LAWS]
Admittedly that is at the end of 21.4, but it does not say "any infringement under this section ..."
Unsatisfactory? Of course, but surely we are used to that by now?

However, taking the kick in the wrong place isn't down to skill, its about trying to get on with the game, to effectively gain a fair advantage through quick thinking and quick action. The "sanction" ,if you like, for getting it wrong is being made to come back and do it again from the correct place, and thereby losing that advantage and the element of surprise.

Or possibly to gain an unfair advantage by stealing several metres?

Escalation: retake, scrum to opposition, PK under 10.4 (m) as seems appropriate?

 

[damo]

I'm not quite so pedantic, it's not a contest for the ball, it's just a restart to get the game going again, everyone wants to get the game going again.

If it happens I'll have a quick word on the run to clean it up, next time they may not be so lucky.

Serious Questions though:

Why does the law require the ball have to left the hands?
Is that so it fulfills the requirements to be a kick? What affect does it have on the game if it doesn't (apart from allowing pedants to claim a turn over)?
Is this a big of history/tradition that the game no longer needs as the referee never wins in these circumstances. Pull it back, you're too fussy and not letting the game flow, just play on and your ignoring a law.
Why is it really needed?

I agree with all of this, including the question as to why this needs to be in the law at all. League doesn't require it and they seem to get on alright with quick taps.

Until this season I took the attitude that each team would get one bad tap a game before I went for a scrum rather than a retap. I have progressed to a level now that if teams don't take the tap properly I have started awarding scrums rather than getting them to take it again, but I am not entirely happy about it (only once so far but still).

 

[Browner]

Browner you have a lot to learn about refereeing. Materiality, empathy, management, contextual judgment - it is not just about the law book. Do you actually referee? Because this approach suggests you don't and your profile is vague to say the least. These principles are covered in the ELRA - have you done this?

most posters have taken out their insect spray on this subject. perhaps SWalsh should do a ELRA ?:wink:

 

[Browner]

. League doesn't require it
.

robert, can we have an emotion smiley to cover occassions like this ................ perhaps a crucifix, a silver bullet, garlic, or the devil child symbol of 666 for all future suggestions from lucifer and his cohorts !

 

[ChrisR]

This is similar to a quick throw in from the wrong place. There is no specified sanction but we can assume the throw is disallowed but it's not a turnover.

However, one foot of the thrower in the field of play and the ops get a line-out/scrum choice where the quick throw was attempted. Doesn't that seem a wee bit harsh as the QT attempt could be waaaay down the pitch. I would have thought that the turnover would have been awarded where the line out would have occurred. Not intending to hijack the thread.

 

[Ian_Cook]

[LAWS]Sanction: Unless otherwise stated in Law any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The opposing team throw in the ball.[/LAWS]
Admittedly that is at the end of 21.4, but it does not say "any infringement under this section ..."
Unsatisfactory? Of course, but surely we are used to that by now?

Sorry OB, I don't buy that.

The sanction listed at the end of 21.4 only applies to the clauses in that Law; same applies to the identically worded sanction at the end of Law 21.5

21.7 has a different sanction, and understandably so, because it deals with what the opposition must do, therefore it allows for the mark to be advanced by 10m for non-compliance. It does not apply to any other Laws.

If you look at 21.2 (a) it simply instructs that the kick is to be taken from the mark. If its not, the referee stops the game and gets the player to retake it from the correct place. The sanction at the end of 21.2 simply cannot apply to 21.2 (a) - it is specific to 21.2 (b) only. Read the wording, its a no-brainer!

This situation is no different from 21.6 in that regard. Would you order a scrum if a player attempted a dropped goal from a FK, using the earlier sanctions to justify doing so? Of course not, you just play on as if it was any other kick into in-goal regardless of whether the ball goes through the posts or not, because 21.6 has no sanction.

Or possibly to gain an unfair advantage by stealing several metres?

I don't buy that either. There are only two possibilities...

1. You catch the player kicking ahead of the mark, in which case he hasn't gained that unfair advantage anyway.

2. You don't catch the player kicking ahead of the mark, in which case he was going to get the unfair advantage anyway.... because you didn't catch him.

 

[Blackberry]

So, is it generally felt that a kick from the wrong place is a "call back and re-take" while a wrong type of kick is a turnover scrum?

 

[OB..]

Sorry OB, I don't buy that.

The sanction listed at the end of 21.4 only applies to the clauses in that Law; same applies to the identically worded sanction at the end of Law 21.5

The phrase "unless otherwise stated in Law" occurs in Law 20.1 (a), where it MUST be referring to other laws, let alone parts of the same Law. You want it to have a different meaning here.

There are only two possibilities...

1. You catch the player kicking ahead of the mark, in which case he hasn't gained that unfair advantage anyway.

2. You don't catch the player kicking ahead of the mark, in which case he was going to get the unfair advantage anyway.... because you didn't catch him.

3. He sees no opportunity to gain ground but can cause confusion by taking a quick tap when he knows you will merely call him back.
4. If he sees an opportunity to score, he loses nothing by trying it on.

 

[Felk]

So, is it generally felt that a kick from the wrong place is a "call back and re-take" while a wrong type of kick is a turnover scrum?

I asked the original question and there seems to be a lot of opinions but from I can gather I will be doing exactly that come September.

 

[Rushforth]

The very last match on grass last season (7s U15s, 7th of the day), I made it very clear to the scorer/kicker what the line of his conversion kick was. He started there, took two big steps (taller than me!) and drop-kicked the ball just over the posts. I disallowed the utterly irrelevant 2 points (4 tries to 1 IIRC), and certainly didn't allow another kick.

Ball not leaving the hands for FK/PK is such a common error at my level that I only ping it first thing pre-season. I ask (next breakdown: make sure ...) then tell (second chance) before penalising, in general.