Quick tap and pass to runner

anbocmorrua


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There's currently an interesting discussion on the RFU Kid's First Facebook page about how to referee the scenario where the attacking team take a tap penalty and the scrum half passes the ball to a player already running at pace. OP was miffed that the referee in his U15 game penalised this, because it "wasn't allowed" at that level. My take on this is that it all depends on the circumstances but I would certainly blow the whistle and award a penalty to the defending team if I thought the move was dangerous (law 9/11). Eg if the penalty was awarded on the 5m line and the receiver was the attacker's biggest lump who was running at full speed. Interested in your thoughts, especially from those reffing the junior game, and where they think Duty of Care kicks in.
 

crossref


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used to be explicitly against the Law (Cavalry Charge) but they removed that from the Law Book
so .... who knows why they did that ? to legalise it ???

In an U15 game other things being equal I'd rather be unpopular for stopping this move than be unpopular for allowing it
(it's not a reversed PK though, it's peep-no-charging!-OK-start-again-peep)
 
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Phil E


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You need to look at the Junior regulations in sequence, not in isolation.

From U11 to U13 games are started with a free pass and there is a restriction on moving before the ball is passed.
At U14 the free pass goes and is replaced by Free Kicks. The restrictions also goes.
At U15 - U18 we have Penalties added and again, no restrictions.

Finally we look at the laws of the game. There are no restrictions on a player receiving a FK or PK pass at pace.

So it is legal and allowed....unless the referee deems it dangerous, but just because one kid is bigger than another doesn't make it dangerous, because if it did where would you stop? Big kids can't tackle small kids?

U11 regs
At a free pass, the opposition must be 7 metres back from the mark. At a free pass, the passer must start with the ball in both hands and, when the referee calls “Play”, pass the ball backwards through the air to a member of their team. For safety reasons, no player from either team may run until the pass is made.

U12 regs
At a free pass, the opposition must be 7 metres back from the mark. At a free pass, the passer must start with the ball in both hands and, when the referee calls “Play”, pass the ball backwards through the air to a member of their team. For safety reasons, no player from either team may run until the pass is made.

U13 regs
At a free pass, the opposition must be 10 metres back from the mark. They cannot start moving forward until the ball leaves the hands of the passer. At a free pass, the passer must start with the ball in both hands and, when instructed by the referee who will call “Play”, pass the ball backwards through the air to a member of their team. For safety reasons, no player may run until the pass is made. The player taking the free pass must pass the ball when the referee calls “Play”

U14 regs
A free kick is a kick from hand. The kick must move the ball a visible distance out of the hand or along the ground. This can either be a tap by the player to themselves, or a kick to gain ground. The opponents must be 10 metres back, towards their own goal line and cannot start moving until the ball has been played.

U15 – U18 regs
No reference

Law of the Game
No reference
The ball must be kicked a visible distance. If the kicker is holding it, it must
clearly leave the hands. If it is on the ground, it must clearly leave the mark.
Once the kick has been successfully taken the kicker may play the ball again.
 

Decorily

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Is there really any difference between a player receiving a pass at pace from a penalty tap and receiving a pass at pace in open play?
Yes. ...I understand that the defenders are going to be back 10m ish from a tap and pass but could also be back equally far from a pass in open play.
 

BikingBud


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used to be explicitly against the Law (Cavalry Charge) but they removed that from the Law Book
so .... who knows why they did that ? to legalise it ???

In an U15 game other things being equal I'd rather be unpopular for stopping this move than be unpopular for allowing it
(it's not a reversed PK though, it's peep-no-charging!-OK-start-again-peep)
But the individual may be built like a tank!

A flying wedge is illegal in the full laws:

Law 9 (22): Teams must not use the ‘flying wedge’.

Flying wedge: An illegal type of attack, which usually happens near the goal line, either from a penalty or free-kick or in open play. Team-mates are latched on each side of the ball-carrier in a wedge formation before engaging the opposition. Often one or more of these team-mates is in front of the ball-carrier.
 

crossref


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i don't thnk the OP is describing a flying wedge, but a cavlry charge

I found this

Delete the Cavalry Charge viz: Cavalry charge: An illegal type of attack, which usually happens near the goal line, when the attacking team is awarded a penalty or free-kick. At a signal from the kicker, a line of attacking players charge forward from a distance. When they get near, the kicker taps the ball and passes to a player.


RFU Comments sent to World Rugby
Is the Cavalry Charge no longer an illegal type of attack?

World Rugby Reply
It rarely happens and if it does, it could be dealt with under law 9.11 if the game situation appears to be dangerous play
 

crossref


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I do remember that. We all observed that the reason it rarely happened was that it was , um, against the Law

We wondered if, now it had been deleted from the Law book, it would start to happen more often ...
 

Mipper


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I do remember that. We all observed that the reason it rarely happened was that it was , um, against the Law

We wondered if, now it had been deleted from the Law book, it would start to happen more often ...
im ashamed to admit that I thought the cavalry charge was still illegal 😬
 

crossref


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im ashamed to admit that I thought the cavalry charge was still illegal 😬
this is the moment for someone to arrive and and remind us that NOTHING CHANGED in the rewrite :)
 

Decorily

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this is the moment for someone to arrive and and remind us that NOTHING CHANGED in the rewrite :)
It was specifically removed....nothing to do with the rewrite.
 

crossref


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in the 2017 rewrite a ONE-PERSON Cavalry Charge became legal. Then in 2021 the multiple chargers became legal

 

Locke


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im ashamed to admit that I thought the cavalry charge was still illegal 😬
I still thought the multi-person cavalry charge was illegal but that doesn’t seem to be the case either, so I’m with you.
 

Stu10


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I still thought the multi-person cavalry charge was illegal but that doesn’t seem to be the case either, so I’m with you.

However, it is illegal if it "is reckless or dangerous to others" (law 9.11).
 

Stu10


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There's currently an interesting discussion on the RFU Kid's First Facebook page about how to referee the scenario where the attacking team take a tap penalty and the scrum half passes the ball to a player already running at pace. OP was miffed that the referee in his U15 game penalised this, because it "wasn't allowed" at that level. My take on this is that it all depends on the circumstances but I would certainly blow the whistle and award a penalty to the defending team if I thought the move was dangerous (law 9/11). Eg if the penalty was awarded on the 5m line and the receiver was the attacker's biggest lump who was running at full speed. Interested in your thoughts, especially from those reffing the junior game, and where they think Duty of Care kicks in.

To directly answer your points, it was arguably misleading to simply say "it wasn't allowed at that level"... the post above by @Phil E excellently details the different rules and variations for each age group... the "wasn't allowed" statement sounds like it might have come from someone following the u13 rules.

However, bottom line, if the ref thinks it is dangerous, then that's the final call on the day. Personally, I would have managed it rather than reversing the penalty (stop them as soon as you realise what is happening, explain that you are not going to allow it based on safety, and allow them to take the penalty differently).

You raise a valid perspective that the circumstances may influence the ref, for example, are the two teams evenly matched in ability and physical attributes; however, I think this would probably have less influence on the outcome than you might think.

Question for you all... I've not been involved or watch adult community rugby for a few years now, would you expect to see this in an adult game? If yes, how is it managed; if no, why not? Given the laws are the same for u15 and adult on this matter, your answer to that question can help you with the original query.
 

crossref


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Question for you all... I've not been involved or watch adult community rugby for a few years now, would you expect to see this in an adult game? If yes, how is it managed; if no, why not? Given the laws are the same for u15 and adult on this matter, your answer to that question can help you with the original query.
I've not ever seen it happen (Don't know why, perhaps teams still think it is illegal)
If it did happen I would expect defenders to complain. It would be hard to referee
 

Decorily

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I see it very regularly at both adult and age grade levels. I have never penalised it.
 

crossref


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I see it very regularly at both adult and age grade levels. I have never penalised it.
that is weird - I mean first I hardly ever see a PK that is tapped (other than tap-and-go-yourself which is common).
Very occasionally a team will do a tap PK, but mostly a big lump just takes it into contact. Sometimes a 9 might tap a and pass to big lump who is just starting to lumber.

I don't think I can remember ever seeing a big lump coming from a distance at speed to receive a tap-and-pass.

Wonder why are our experiences so different?
 

didds

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I suspect its still hardly ever seen in grass roots not because "everybody" thinks it's illegal, but because the kick to touch for the lineout is perhaps seen as superior.

PKs VERY close to the line and in mid field, and FKs maybe the only time a tap and pass is likely.
Go back to the early to mid 90s penalty tap moves includign runners at speed were pretty common ... at least the clubs i played at.
One such move was me on a wide crash - devised during Iraq #1. The move was named "Scud". Nobody knew quite where it was going to end up-, but we knew that when it got there it would do a lot of damage.
 
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