[Law] Red card or not

[didds]

absolutely agree with the above two posts.

if its case of head contact = RC howsoever occuring then all oppo players have to do is ensure their head hits an elbow/shoulder. stupid.

 

[crossref]

absolutely agree with the above two posts.

if its case of head contact = RC howsoever occuring then all oppo players have to do is ensure their head hits an elbow/shoulder. stupid.

Boys, do your best to receive an elbow in the head, remember , we are using our red card game plan !

 

[Ian_Cook]

Boys, do your best to receive an elbow in the head, remember , we are using our red card game plan !

Careful now coach, someone might threaten to ring up "the suits" at your club and inform them of how you teach your charges to do unsporting things. :biggrin:

 

[irishref]

Referee sees it as an elbow to the throat, which is well above the nipple line obviously, and thus as dangerous play warranting a Red. I have no issue with that.

Yes, the 'tackle' attempted by the Perpignan player was a smother tackle we often see on players fielding a high ball, trying to prevent a quick offload by the ball catcher and using momentum to drive them back. 99 times out of 100 we see a ball catcher being driven back, the crowd roars and the next phase is set up.

As far as I'm concerned, Parisse goes above and beyond bracing for impact. He has time to size up his opponent, move his shoulder and elbow into position and drives forward, high and with force, into his oncoming opponent.

Had Parisse simply fielded the ball, tucked his arms into his body and taken the hit - which is what I would call bracing for impact - we may have had a totally different outcome. But what I see here is Parisse moving into his oncoming opponent dangerously.

Red a good call for me. But I may be on my own here.

 

[Taff]

... But what I see here is Parisse moving into his oncoming opponent dangerously.

I've watched it in slo-mo 3 times and if I'm honest, I don't think Parisse had time to size anybody up. :chin:

Even in slo-mo it looks almost instantaneous; the opponent is on him as soon as his foot touches the ground.

 

[Dickie E]

I've watched it in slo-mo 3 times and if I'm honest, I don't think Parisse had time to size anybody up. :chin:

Even in slo-mo it looks almost instantaneous; the opponent is on him as soon as his foot touches the ground.

maybe so but perhaps it is similar to the player in the air situation. A player catching a high ball should reasonably be expected to be immediately tackled so shouldn't brace with his elbow up.

 

[Cross]

what is irrelevant is the concept that the offender has to be the one to supply all the force.

Precisely my point.

 

[Ian_Cook]

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sergio-parisse-reveals-teeth-wound-15087547

Parisse sent Brazo a picture of the teeth marks left after the tackle.

Its significant that those teeth-marks are below the shoulder and below the level of Parisse's armpits.

"Brazo has absolved Parisse of any blame for the controversial incident, insisting he hopes Parisse is not suspended as a result.

"I did not have time to lower myself to tackle him. When I got to him it was too late," he said.

"I should have realised before he was so close. It was not an aggression on his part, it's me who hits him on the shoulder. I hope he will not get many weeks of suspension, if at all,"

So much for the elbow to the head then. It will be a travesty if this RC is not rescinded.

 

[SimonSmith]

It has been rescinded.

 

[seanaodh]

Probably the right call but I'd like there to be some clarification issued.

Common sense says no red, but the guidelines dictate that if we think he made contact with the head recklessly (and I think that you can argue back and forth on whether or not Parisse should have expected what happened) then it's minimum YC.

If we accept it's accidental, the guidelines still say this may be punished. I don't see how you can settle on play on if contact with the head is made under the current guidelines.

 

[Pinky]

A couple of folks above have said contact with the head is red. This is only true for a tackler, the ball carrier is still allowed to hand or fend off a tackler by pushing them away and there is (other than in age grade) no ban on this being on the head. So for a ball carrier to be RC he has to do something dangerous that is outwith the description of a fend.

- - - Updated - - -

Oh, if that is a tooth mark on Parisse's shoulder, why was the other player not wearing a mouthguard?

 

[Dickie E]

A couple of folks above have said contact with the head is red. This is only true for a tackler,

and only if deliberate. Accidental or careless contact carry lesser sanctions.

 

[crossref]

A couple of folks above have said contact with the head is red. This is only true for a tackler, the ball carrier is still allowed to hand or fend off a tackler by pushing them away and there is (other than in age grade) no ban on this being on the head. So for a ball carrier to be RC he has to do something dangerous that is outwith the description of a fend.

[?

Well, not exactly.. 9.27 it's an offence to hand off "with excessive force"

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Some of the comment on this thread remind me of an old cartoon in the "Football Echo" by the great "Gren".

The eponymous characters woukd often be seen walking home from an Aberflyharf RFC game bemoaing another 78-3 loss and complaining that the referee should not have sent off Arnold Nutstrampler or Attila Groinstomper when all that happened was that the opposition player headbutted the boot of one or other of them.

Seems for some, truth is stranger than fiction!

 

[thepercy]

I don't think the shoulder had anything to do with the sanction. You can see in the officials movements they are concerned with the elbow extending into the throat.

 

[Ian_Cook]

It has been rescinded.

A bloody well right too!

Even more importantly, it was rescinded after the referee himself, Laurent Cardona, and one of his ARs submitted reports to the judiciary in which they say they got it wrong.

https://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/sergio-parisse-red-card-cleared-15087547

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/disciplinary-panel-see-sense-parisse-red-card-incident/

 

[didds]

So we can read into that, that the team of four involved will be sent for retraining? Including some "use some common sense" training

Total howler.

didds

 

[crossref]

The thing is. . the last few years WR have moved consistently away from common sense and instead into prescriptive , flow chart style decision making . In the interests of consistency.
I don't think refs are rewarded for ignoring protocol in the interest of common sense

 

[didds]

but here was an example of protocol being levered into use where it wasn't appropriate

maybe there isn't a protocol for "shit happens"

didds

 

[ChrisR]

The thing is. . the last few years WR have moved consistently away from common sense and instead into prescriptive , flow chart style decision making . In the interests of consistency.
I don't think refs are rewarded for ignoring protocol in the interest of common sense

Players, coaches and fans accept variance (to some degree) in referee tolerances as a measure of management. "No tolerance" policies as applied here and in the US judicial system exclude common sense.