[Golden Oldies] Reports on Referee post-game on WhosTheRef

[Vovonne]

Hello everyone, <br><br>I'm a new female referee and new joiner on this forum and would welcome your views on this issue I had at the weekend, when I refereed my second game.<br><br>I thought the game had gone ok for a second game, of course I give myself plenty of work ons after each game but also try to be positive and notice the good things I did and areas of focus from the last game that I managed to implement well. I went to the clubhouse afterwards and left on a really positive note as the away team's coach gave me some helfpul and overall positive feedback on how I'd managed the game, played advantage well etc., along with a couple of points to work on. The home team's coach only said to me thank you for the game and that was it. I then saw a couple of days afterwards that the home team had filed a report on me via the WhosTheRef website, which was overall very negative without giving any details (only saying "Significant Improvement Needed" in respect of quite a few areas of my game). <br><br>I was just really gutted that they couldn't give me feedback face-to-face, it would have been an opportunity to learn by discussing specific examples and it would also put simply have been more honest/open. This report felt a bit like a stab in the back. I was nothing but friendly to everyone before and after the match, they can't have felt threatened by me in that clubhouse! I'm also disappointed that this will be the first thing my Society assessors hear about me as my first assessment won't be before the 5th game (I have to send a short self assessment after each game but this report is the first one from a third party). I realise I probably need to toughen up but it's a shame that it came so early on in my refereeing journey, when I'm desperately trying to build up my confidence with every game.<br><br>So the sorts of things I was wondering were: <br>- Is it usual to get these types of forms after league games or did the home team go out of their way to do it? I didn't get one from my first game (it was a friendly though).<br>- Do you know who gets to see these reports? Is it everyone on WhosTheRef or just you and your match allocator/assessors?<br>- Should I bother trying to respond / find out more given how negative it was compared to what the other coach said and my own assessment of how it went, or is it just one of those things I need to get used to, as referees get this type of feedback at all levels?<br><br>In case a bit more context would be helpful: I'm in my late 30s, did the ERRA course a couple of months ago and have to do 5 games before getting assessed and being given an official rating. The first game I refereed was a ladies' friendly at level 12, this game I just played was a ladies league game at level 8 between a team near the top (away team) and another near the bottom (home team). The away team won comprehensively as you would expect, they were fitter and more skilled. In hindsight maybe level 8 was too ambitious from my match allocator for a 2nd game, but it was never going to be a close game so maybe that's why they felt happy I could do it. I certainly don't feel that any of my decisions had a negative impact on the outcome of the game for the home team. I thought I was consistent in my decisions and fair.<br><br>Thanks in advance for your thoughts on this!<br><br>Best wishes<br><br><br>

 

[Phil E]

OK, bit hard to read due to the formatting. If you are cutting and pasting into here try pasting as plain text only.

Aside from that welcome to the forum.

I would speak to your Society about this. In my Society only assessors and watchers can post reports on WTR, and these have to be evidence based. The assessor has to have game data to support everything they say about the referee. In addition Assessors are there to help the referee, not knock them down.

I am not aware of any WTR system that lets coaches post reports on referees, but your Society may be different, so speak to them for clarification and to express your concerns.

In the old days referees had match cards that the coaches filled in, with marks on various aspects of the referees game. However these were never considered in isolation. They were looked at collectively at the end of the season and the high and low scores were thrown out to get an average score across the season.

So if your WTR system is similar I would expect it to be considered in the same way.

Speak to your Society about it, then park it and move on. All Referees get bad reports at some times in their career, you have to take away the learning part and forget the rest. Like wise you will make mistakes in games (everyone does, without exception) and have to find a way to learn from it and then forget it and move on. Dwelling on mistakes helps no one.

Enjoy the rest of your refereeing experience.

 

[didds]

I'd add to Phil E's excellent points that if they hadnt been able to specify any areas of actual conern andf have only alluded to some wooly and vague concept of perceived/alleged incompetence then their report is worth the specifics they have (not) covered and should be ignored by your society - and yoiu can certainly ignore it.

didds

 

[didds]

(any reason this is in [golden oldies] if it was a L8 match?)

 

[colesy]

The first game I refereed was a ladies' friendly at level 12, this game I just played was a ladies league game at level 8

I'm struggling to understand how you managed to get appointed, on only your second time out, to a Level 8 fixture.

 

[Pablo]

Hi Vovonne - welcome to the forums, and more broadly, to the refereeing family! As I was reading your story, the first thought that occurred to me was "I wonder if the home team lost?", and sure enough, there's the punchline at the end of your post!

A few thoughts:
- yes, level 8 is a huge reach for your second game ever. I think that's a mistake on the part of your appointments secretary, to be honest
- I don't know how your WTR is set up, but in Bucks those forms are only visible to the referee and the grading committee
- it's not unusual for losing teams to have an axe to grind, and submit a negative review that scapegoats the ref, instead of examining their own failings. Has the away side submitted a report card? If so, that would be an interesting point of comparison, given that they have every reason to be happy with the game's outcome.
- ignore the overall negativity of the home side's feedback, but do look at the pattern. Does their view of which aspects of your game are relatively stronger/weaker match your view? That could be a useful piece of self-reflection for you

But overall, I would learn to take this sort of thing with a pinch of salt. Neither the winning nor losing side will be objective about your performance! Be discerning about what you take from their feedback, and discard whatever you feel to be unfair/invalid. When you finally get a proper report from a neutral, skilled referee adviser, you should give this far more weight than the WTR form.

 

[didds]

I'm struggling to understand how you managed to get appointed, on only your second time out, to a Level 8 fixture.

Hmmm. Something isn't adding up - desperate appointments secretary?

"
Soc/Assoc
LSRFUR
Grade
Level 15 - 11"

didds

 

[crossref]

I can add some context

In London Society the teams are able (and encouraged) to provide feedback on WTR after every game

And more often than not they do, so over the season you get lots of feedback .

Vovone
1 the winning team always provide better feedback than the losing
2 don't worry about one report .. they may be talking b/s .. but if the same feedback and same comments come regularly then pay attention
3 the society do monitor the feed back , of course, but in the spirit above. If they are worried they will tell you and send someone to watch you . We dont make grading decisions based on club cards
4 talk to your region about this card ... Do you have a coach, a recruitment person ? PM me if you want help with this, I can give you the right contacts

Welcome to London and to RR

 

[Flish]

Always the possibility that the match grading / level is not entirely accurate, I've had a L11 friendly that was by all accounts a L8 and vice versa, so I take all those things with a pinch of salt.

As to the report, for me ignore it, for reasons already highlighted, same reason I ignore pretty much all feedback from either team until such point as they've wound down, showered and we're back in the bar later - admittedly some will hold a grudge for longer. Reality is much of our work is opinion based, and yours counts most - so at very least where someone disagrees with you there should be the opportunity for a conversation to understand what your opinion was, and on what basis eg what you saw, did etc - without that it's not feedback.

Ignore, move on, and enjoy your next game

 

[Vovonne]

Thank you all for your responses, and apologies for the formatting and picking the wrong tag (Golden Oldies)!

I've since heard back from the Society and they've said something that echoes what Phil E, didds and Pablo said. Thanks also to crossref for the helpful context about teams being encouraged to do this. Given the lack of specifics, I'll take this one with a pinch of salt and focus on the work-ons I've identified and the helpful ones from the coach I spoke to. And I'll look forward to the feedback from my assessor at the 5th game.

As to the Level 8 point, I'm still not 100% familiar with the grading system but from what I understand the ladies' levels might work a bit differently.

Thanks again everyone, and all the best!

 

[crossref]

I would only add that It would be crazy to get a L8 for your second game post ERRA , so I think you did really well

 

[Flish]

I think Levels are assumed as a few below the 1st team (for a second XV), at my club we have a Tyrells Premiership team as the first team, not sure what level that is as nationally appointed, but the ladies Second XV are a level 7 on WTR - and with all the respect due in the world they are not level 7 (unless levels have no parity between men and ladies), probably nearer Level 9 or 10 - certainly a wide range of abilities within the squad

 

[crossref]

We grade the competition .. so for example the Middlesex Merit table ranges from L8 (premier div) to L12 (Div6)

The team has the grade of the div they play in

Or for example Women's NC 1, I can see is Level 9

However it's easy for an individual game in WTR to be misgraded for one reason or another

 

[OB..]

As to the Level 8 point, I'm still not 100% familiar with the grading system but from what I understand the ladies' levels might work a bit differently.

In my area the lowest level league in the Women's game is Level 10. Giving you a L8 game for your second match seems very unfair.

My society tries to appoint a mentor to your first few games. Not a formal assessment, but a friendly face to explain what you did well and what you need to work on. It can be hard to eradicate bad habits if they are not caught early.

I endorse the supportive comments above - take what you can use from it and ignore the rest. You learn by experience.

 

[Balones]

Tyrrells Premier games are appointed by the RFU. This could see anything from a L3-L6 referee and occasionally a L7 if somebody is being fast-tracked.
Tyrrells Premier Development (2nd) teams are appointed by the local society so could be officiated by anyone that the appointment secretary feels is up to doing the match, regardless of actual level to some extent. (At least in our society.) In general it is mostly officiated by L7-9 referees. Women’s games outside of this get a similar level of referee depending which league they are in and who is available.

Linking an actual level to these games is difficult since the womens’ game has been developing at quite a rate over the last few years. Over the years the level of referee appointed hass been raised because the coaches and clubs want more technical accuracy in the refereeing so that they can coach to that level and help development.

Re club feedback. We got rid of card and club feedback quite a few years ago because of the lack of accuracy/reference and as people say, the losing team being more negative. It was seen as a pointless exercise/expense. If a club has a genuine concern about a referee then they can always contact one of the society officials by some other means. (Or praise.) What clubs don’t really know is what stage a referee is at in terms of their development. Just sending through a moan or complaint doesn't do anyone any favours. Anybody can do that. Also when we do receive some feedback there are some clubs/coaches whose opinion are worth a lot more consideration because their criticism is more thought through and constructive, alongside some empathy. I personally can’t understand why societies still bother with club feedback but then we are a small society in terms of geography and numbers and it is easier to be in contact with people and discuss any issues that relate to referee performance. I can see there may be problems within a society the size of London. Clubs are not there to encourage and develop referees so their feedback is of limited value unless it comes from a very creditable source and given in the appropriate wsy.

Re OP. Like OB... says, we would send a mentor along to the first few games if at all possible. It might depend on what your experience prior to joining the society was and maybe other factors such as personality/confidence. When we have a situation where club feedback raises concerns about the referee then the atmosphere within our society is that generally it is the fault of the appointments secretary for appointing you to a game at a level that you might not be ready for. It cettainly wouldn't be your fault. The important thing is whether you enjoyed the experience on the day. L8 for a completely new referee is a steep step up that we would not allow. I was appointed to a L8 game in my third match but by then I had been refereeing unofficially (outside of the society) for thirty years, quite often at a higher level because of the referee not turning up, as well as coaching and playing at a decent level. The appointments secretary knew me and had actually been refereed by me! By the very fact you have written into this forum tells me you are just the sort of person we want in refereeing. Someone who wants to improve and enjoy the experience. As you can tell from the responses you hsve got our support. Just remember that for the next game and forget any negative feelings you might have. You’ll get more as you develop and progress!

 

[Vovonne]

Thanks for the further contributions! On the grade level point, it was a Women's NC 1 league, which crossref suggests is actually Level 9. I used the level referred to on the WTR website which now looks like it was wrong. Still, from what you all say that level was probably a stretch for a second game, so I'm glad I survived it :hap:

 

[Balones]

Thanks for the further contributions! On the grade level point, it was a Women's NC 1 league, which crossref suggests is actually Level 9. I used the level referred to on the WTR website which now looks like it was wrong. Still, from what you all say that level was probably a stretch for a second game, so I'm glad I survived it :hap:

I can say very confidently through experience and some knowledge that the levels on WTR are a VERY rough guide to the level of the match. If it was a NC1 game then we would be appointing anyone from L9-11. Depending on experience/background as explained in previous post.

 

[Vovonne]

Re OP. Like OB... says, we would send a mentor along to the first few games if at all possible. It might depend on what your experience prior to joining the society was and maybe other factors such as personality/confidence. When we have a situation where club feedback raises concerns about the referee then the atmosphere within our society is that generally it is the fault of the appointments secretary for appointing you to a game at a level that you might not be ready for. It cettainly wouldn't be your fault. The important thing is whether you enjoyed the experience on the day. L8 for a completely new referee is a steep step up that we would not allow. I was appointed to a L8 game in my third match but by then I had been refereeing unofficially (outside of the society) for thirty years, quite often at a higher level because of the referee not turning up, as well as coaching and playing at a decent level. The appointments secretary knew me and had actually been refereed by me! By the very fact you have written into this forum tells me you are just the sort of person we want in refereeing. Someone who wants to improve and enjoy the experience. As you can tell from the responses you hsve got our support. Just remember that for the next game and forget any negative feelings you might have. You’ll get more as you develop and progress!

Thanks Balones, just saw this part of your earlier response as well. In terms of prior experience, I learnt my rugby in Wales at uni and made it into the Welsh Students squad as a utility back before moving to London and picking up too many injuries to carry on. I was missing being involved in the game and am really pleased to have given refereeing a go. My main worry before giving it a go was that it might be a bit lonely but as this forum shows the refereeing community is really welcoming! I really appreciate everyone taking the time to respond to this thread, it's been super helpful.
Sunday's game was a bit of a stretch but I still really enjoyed it, so I'll be sticking around

 

[Marc Wakeham]

Vovonne, Which Uni were you in? I might have reffed you.

On the topic. Losing sides tend to moan winning sides tend to praise. Just as when a player, be your own sternest critic. Also don't worry. Your advisors will make their own mind up about you from watching and not from a coach of a poor team who wants to blame you for his failings as a coach

 

[Vovonne]

Hi Marc, I was at Aberystwyth, though it was quite a while back now (2002-2005)... I played for the uni team, the town team and the region (Llanelli, then re-branded West Wales), and travelled a fair bit around Wales in the process, as I'm sure you do too as part of your refereeing! I love going back on a regular basis.
Thanks for the rule of thumb about feedback and your extra tips, I'll bear all that in mind :smile:.