[Golden Oldies] Reports on Referee post-game on WhosTheRef

[Marc Wakeham]

Aber, a lovely town. I'd not have reffed you back then. So you dodged a bullet. The Uni plays most of its games in Cardiff and the surrounding unis these days because Aber is such a treck for other unis. A nice bunch at the moment, struggling but a fun bunch. And to buck the trend; I reffed them last season (a heavy defeat). A couple of months later an AR at one of my club's games spoke to me to say how pleased Aber were with my handling of the game.

 

[mcroker]

We (Kent) have also recently introduced WTR match reports - but I still choose to use the paper ones. Not because I am a ludite but because I like the fact they facilitate a conversation with each team on the subject of my performance, and hopefully the feedback makes me better...

We have been told that what matters is the trend - and not to worry if a losing team gives worse feedback one week

 

[Dickie E]

I then saw a couple of days afterwards that the home team had filed a report on me via the WhosTheRef website, which was overall very negative without giving any details

one of the challenges for you will arise when next you are appointed to ref the home team. You will need to put this negative experience behind you, but that may not be so easy. What strategy do you think you should adopt?

 

[didds]

Hi Marc, I was at Aberystwyth, though it was quite a while back now (2002-2005)

2005 is a while back?

Try UCW Aberystwyth 1981-1984, Ifor Evans and Cwrt Mawr

Many happy Wednesday afternoons spent playing at Blaendollau as the RAF jets screamed overheaed! LOL.


didds

 

[didds]

one of the challenges for you will arise when next you are appointed to ref the home team. You will need to put this negative experience behind you, but that may not be so easy. What strategy do you think you should adopt?

Snipers wold be my suggestion.

didds

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I'd go on the front foot. When confirming the appointment I ask the Fixture sec to let the coach know my mobile number (it's published on the officials list the clubs have anyway) so he can contact me prior to the game if he has any "clarification" requests. I accept newer ref may not want to open up that situation.

 

[Vovonne]

one of the challenges for you will arise when next you are appointed to ref the home team. You will need to put this negative experience behind you, but that may not be so easy. What strategy do you think you should adopt?

Very good point, thanks Dickie E for flagging. I think now that I have more context, the main thing explaining my initial reaction is that I didn't expect the online report or know what I should make of it. I don't hold any bad feelings against the team in question, though I'd want to encourage all coaches I meet going forward to chat in the clubhouse afterwards about how they think the game went. And from that take away what I'm not sure about/what sounds fair to check/develop on, and leave the rest behind.

Now that I have more context on the reporting, my initial thoughts on your question were that I would thank the coach for his last feedback and encourage him to give me feedback in the clubhouse after the game, so we can talk through our perspectives on any particular aspect of the game and this would help me identify any areas to focus on for my development. I could also say I'd be keen to hear from him whether there's been an improvement since the last time he saw me (if he remembers!).

The thing I wasn't sure about was whether to bring it up before or after the game. I thought maybe after, this way I just focus on being ready for the game beforehand. It may be that as I get more used to what to do on game days I'll feel more comfortable bringing it up upfront.

How does that sound?

 

[Vovonne]

I'd go on the front foot. When confirming the appointment I ask the Fixture sec to let the coach know my mobile number (it's published on the officials list the clubs have anyway) so he can contact me prior to the game if he has any "clarification" requests. I accept newer ref may not want to open up that situation.

I like your style Marc! I'll remember that option, and it has the added bonus that it's not just before the game starts so I'd have time to digest it and put it away for the game. Thanks

 

[Marc Wakeham]

In all probability he will say: "No issues!". Or something banal like: "Can you watch their scrum pushing early". As he actually has nothing to say really.

 

[crossref]

I would hesitate to turn up at a club wanting to discuss the feedback they left me last time they saw me
1 it might be months ago
2 you don't even know which individual actually filled it in ...
3 they have forgotten all about it
4 it would give the impression you have been stewing about it for months
5 if there was something they didn't like you have now just brought it straight back into their mind !

Better I think to treat every fixture like a fresh one.
I sometimes ask coaches if there is anything they have noticed refs focusing on this season, different from last. Its a neutral and generic question that can lead to an interesting conversation

 

[Flish]

Better I think to treat every fixture like a fresh one.

This is the approach I take, not always easy, and works both ways (a positive experience could be negative next time and vice versa), the referees equivalent of 'leave it on the pitch'. Not always easy, because we're human, and we worry - but try to forget it and approach everything as nil -nil, same preparation, same approach and do your best

 

[Dickie E]

I would hesitate to turn up at a club wanting to discuss the feedback they left me last time they saw me
1 it might be months ago
2 you don't even know which individual actually filled it in ...
3 they have forgotten all about it
4 it would give the impression you have been stewing about it for months
5 if there was something they didn't like you have now just brought it straight back into their mind !

Better I think to treat every fixture like a fresh one.
I sometimes ask coaches if there is anything they have noticed refs focusing on this season, different from last. Its a neutral and generic question that can lead to an interesting conversation

I agree although I think it is good to have enough emotional intelligence to recognise if there's any elephant in the room. You walk in and suddenly the room goes silent & there's no eye contact. Or there's a stage whisper of "oh gawd, look who we've got this week". What do you do then?

PS: Vovonne, I find your willingness for introspection and learning to be refreshingly positive

 

[crossref]

Yes, well there is always that !

If it relates to something specific , then I think you would want to address it. It should be possible to defuse , in theory

If they just generally think you are s**t then you are in for a tough afternoon

I have heard of comments along the lines that if you want Wayne Barnes appointed to ref you, you have to get yourself into the premiership ..

 

[Flish]

"I'm the best referee they thought good enough for you lads" - or similar normally gets a smile, some players have to think about it

 

[Marc Wakeham]

I agree although I think it is good to have enough emotional intelligence to recognise if there's any elephant in the room. You walk in and suddenly the room goes silent & there's no eye contact. Or there's a stage whisper of "oh gawd, look who we've got this week". What do you do then?

PS: Vovonne, I find your willingness for introspection and learning to be refreshingly positive

That's why I posted

I'd go on the front foot. When confirming the appointment I ask the Fixture sec to let the coach know my mobile number (it's published on the officials list the clubs have anyway) so he can contact me prior to the game if he has any "clarification" requests. I accept newer ref may not want to open up that situation.

"Clarifications" covers a multitude of possibilities. If he wants to bring up the last game, His call. If He has an issue that last week's ref did so be it.

 

[Zebra1922]

I’ve had lots of face to face feedback from coaches complaining about my refereeing (ALWAYS the losing coach). If they cannot give examples or specific feedback I ignore it, it’s they focus on a single decision I ignore it.

So,e feedback is valuable and useful for your development, much is sour grapes. Take what is useful to you and ignore the rest.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Tyrrells Premier games are appointed by the RFU. This could see anything from a L3-L6 referee and occasionally a L7 if somebody is being fast-tracked.
Tyrrells Premier Development (2nd) teams are appointed by the local society so could be officiated by anyone that the appointment secretary feels is up to doing the match, regardless of actual level to some extent. (At least in our society.) In general it is mostly officiated by L7-9 referees. Women’s games outside of this get a similar level of referee depending which league they are in and who is available.

Linking an actual level to these games is difficult since the womens’ game has been developing at quite a rate over the last few years. Over the years the level of referee appointed hass been raised because the coaches and clubs want more technical accuracy in the refereeing so that they can coach to that level and help development.

Welcome to the forum.

I wouldn't worry too much about the report from the loser.

Tyrrells Premier games are, as outlined above, invariably refereed by RFU appointees usually NP @ Level 3-4. My lad is required to do them and he is L4 - they also have ARs appointed too. I did a pre-season game for two women's teams, one of which turned up with 12 and borrowed a few from the home team. It was pegged as L6 or L7.

In reality no L6 or L7 men's team would turn up shorthanded but the development of the women's game needs (for reason's outlined by Balones) referees at a Level to provide accuracy and management that facilitates development and not absolutely nailed on to the level relative to the equivalent men's game. I'll say no more.

As you referee mens' and womens' Rugby it will be come apparent that they are different and present different challenges. As you progress, as I'm sure you will based on the thread so far, you'll know what's required.

We have a couple of women refs in Yorkshire who are progressing well after starting quite recently (relative to some on here) and the opportunity to progress for women referees is there if you're dedicated/good enough.

Enjoy your refereeing and ask as many questions as you need to - you may get a concise, accurate answer - occasionally.

Cheers

 

[GingerSeaMonster]

Very good point, thanks Dickie E for flagging. I think now that I have more context, the main thing explaining my initial reaction is that I didn't expect the online report or know what I should make of it. I don't hold any bad feelings against the team in question, though I'd want to encourage all coaches I meet going forward to chat in the clubhouse afterwards about how they think the game went. And from that take away what I'm not sure about/what sounds fair to check/develop on, and leave the rest behind.

Now that I have more context on the reporting, my initial thoughts on your question were that I would thank the coach for his last feedback and encourage him to give me feedback in the clubhouse after the game, so we can talk through our perspectives on any particular aspect of the game and this would help me identify any areas to focus on for my development. I could also say I'd be keen to hear from him whether there's been an improvement since the last time he saw me (if he remembers!).

The thing I wasn't sure about was whether to bring it up before or after the game. I thought maybe after, this way I just focus on being ready for the game beforehand. It may be that as I get more used to what to do on game days I'll feel more comfortable bringing it up upfront.

How does that sound?

Did the coach know it was only your second match? I didn't;t let either coach or team know before my first match, got really good feedback afterwards and surprise that it is was my first, so I was on a bit of a high. Before my second match I let them both know it was only my second which was a mistake.

I wonder if he would have been as harsh if he knew it was only your second match?

 

[Vovonne]

Did the coach know it was only your second match? I didn't;t let either coach or team know before my first match, got really good feedback afterwards and surprise that it is was my first, so I was on a bit of a high. Before my second match I let them both know it was only my second which was a mistake.

I wonder if he would have been as harsh if he knew it was only your second match?

Hi GingerSeaMonster, thanks it's a good point, I only told people after the game (I was warned not to mention it before a game), but to be fair the person who filed the report might not have heard.

 

[Shelflife]

Vovonne I wouldnt worry too much about the report, many (not all) only view the ref in the context of getting the decisions that they want as opposed to the correct decision.

Im a ref 9 years and I recently did a decent level u20s game which was in effect a promotion decider. Good tight hard fought game that went down to the wire 2 points in it.

Red scrum was very dominant and pushed Blue back everytime, Red couldnt understand why they werent getting a pen everytime and were getting very frustrated both on and off the pitch.

At the next scrum I clearly explained to the Red Capt (hooker) that unless Blue lost their bind,stood up, collapsed etc that there was no pen for going backwards.
Same thing again at the next scrum with Red still very frustrated which led to a spicy last 15mins.

Red lost by 2, no one from the Red team shook my hand and two coaches came into my dressing room to talk to me about my scrum management . I explained it again and also told them that I had clearly explained to the capt during the game as well.

They were still very unhappy and decided to send 16 clips to the head of my refs association looking for an explanation.

He reviewed the clips and came back to me with queries on 3 of them, I satisfied him with 2 explanations and he said I probably got one of them incorrect. He then sent his report cc me on it as well back to the Red team.

Long story short, managers who lose are more likely to blame the ref even though the ref got most of the decisions right.

Personally I ignore coaches comments, they tend not to be as up to speed with the laws as a ref would be, ill politely listen and answer questions if they want but rarely take on board what they say as they are completely biased.

If you can get a copy of any game that is videoed and go through it or even better get another ref to check it for you.

Keep the faith and enjoy !