Restarts in midi

[Davet]

OB -then I suggest you are wrong.

Th law requires that all the opposition be behind their 10 metre line - no penalty sanction applies, and none is therefore appropriate - all that the law mandates is that the kick be taken again.

 

[PaulDG]

But certainly at my club most of the coaches and refs for the U7 through U17 age groups are either current or recently retired players with a fair Law knowledge and plenty of game nouse.

Things can be very different on any given Sunday and even worse at festivals when the "usual bloke" isn't available because he can't be there all day (and his son wasn't even selected for the festival squad).

 

[OB..]

Th law requires that all the opposition be behind their 10 metre line - no penalty sanction applies, and none is therefore appropriate - all that the law mandates is that the kick be taken again.

As I have pointed out before, Law 13.4 does not refer to a restart kick, which is why we have a problem.

At a kick-off, the referee will not blow his whistle until both teams are in their proper positions. You choose to infer that this is effectively the case at a re-start, even though we agree that the referee does not have to blow his whistle. So what are the criteria? Your inference is that the kicking team must wait, the only restriction being that what their opponents do must not constitute time-wasting. In other words "in your own time" is meaningless, since the opponents are in control. I don't see why they should be.

If 13.4 were extended to cover re-starts, it would need either to specify that the kicker must wait for the opposition, or to cover the options if a kick is taken before the opposition get back beyond their 10m line. Or even require the referee to blow his whistle.

There is a gap in the laws. Your way of filling it differs from mine.

 

[Davet]

OB - are you seriously suggesting that Law 13 requirements that specify things like the ball must travel 10m before a member of the kickers team plays it, or that members of the kickers team must be behind the ball when it is kicked apply ONLY to Kick off at the start of each half, and not to restart kicks after a score?

I doubt it very much.

Yet you are happy to isolate one of these several elements of Law 13 and say - yeah - the rest we will enforce but not that one. Andm furthermore, although the consequence of an opponent being in front of his 10m line at kick off is a rekick, you will either ignore the requirement if the player doesn't interfere with the ball being kicked, but will actually award a PK against him if he does interfere - even though the Law actually does allow him to play the ball inside that 10m zone.

I see neither rhyme nor reason in any of that.


It strikes me that you seem to be concerned only with getting play moving again as fast as possible and any Law that interferes with that can be worked around. Maybe you could confirm to me what you view is on waiting for the ref to make a mark before a second quick tap penalty can be taken?

 

[OB..]

OB - are you seriously suggesting that Law 13 requirements that specify things like the ball must travel 10m before a member of the kickers team plays it, or that members of the kickers team must be behind the ball when it is kicked apply ONLY to Kick off at the start of each half, and not to restart kicks after a score?

I doubt it very much.

I have specifically denied any such thing.

We all agree that Law 13 is a mess in distinguishing the two and then failing to follow up on it properly. For sound practical reasons we treat them as the same – EXCEPT in the one respect drawn from Law 6: the referee does not whistle for a restart. We are already therefore treating a restart as different in this respect. Arguments about ignoring the rest of Law 13 are irrelevant because we already make a distinction.

The question about when a restart kick can be taken IS different whether you like it or not. How we fill in the gap is at issue. You have your view and I have mine. It is not covered by the Laws.

Yes, I do want to see play faster rather than slower. That seems to be in keeping with the general IRB view, though it is not the only consideration.

If I were re-writing the law I would drop the distinction between kick-offs and restart kicks. I would simply add to 13.4 something like:
"After a score the kick-off may be taken as soon as the kicking team is ready. Any opponents who have not reached their 10m line must not interfere with play until they have retired to it.
Sanction: penalty in the centre of the defending 10 metre line."

You would presumably amend Law 6.A.7 (a) to:
"The referee must carry a whistle and blow the whistle to indicate that a kick-off may be taken when both teams are ready."

Maybe you could confirm to me what you view is on waiting for the ref to make a mark before a second quick tap penalty can be taken?

Maybe you should avoid irrelevancies.

 

[Davet]

I see no need to revise the Law. Other than the failure to to be explicit that the same conditions specified throughout Law 13 apply to both kick-offs and restarts after a score it is quite clear.

In practice we treat then the same anyway - hence the point about the kickers team being behind the ball and the ball travelling 10m etc.

Your rewrite would change things, but since your rewrite is not yet incorporated into Law I would suggest we operate on the basis of the existing wording, and treat restarts and kick-offs the same - as the Law makers clearly felt they should be; otherwise they would have specified a difference, rather than, as they did, simply conflating them.

You make much of Law 6 and the whistle - but I think that is a very flimsy peg.

We may never agree, and the number of times it happens in the adult game is insufficient to make me lose any real sleep.

I do think we agree that such quick restarts have no place in the age grade games where no conversions are taken -?

 

[OB..]

In practice we treat then the same anyway

No we don't. Nobody (including you) advocates the use of the whistle for a restart kick.

You make much of Law 6 and the whistle - but I think that is a very flimsy peg.

There is no peg to hang the timing of the restart kick on. Law 13.4 does not specify the timing - that comes from Law 6.

We may never agree, and the number of times it happens in the adult game is insufficient to make me lose any real sleep.

I agree on both counts.

I do think we agree that such quick restarts have no place in the age grade games where no conversions are taken -?

Yes.

Should we send up a flare to let the others know it is safe to resume reading?!:biggrin:

 

[PaulDG]

No we don't. Nobody (including you) advocates the use of the whistle for a restart kick.

Though actually, you see [hear] it all the time at mini/midi & junior games.

Nothing in the age grade regulations says it's appropriate - in fact, the Continuum used to make clear that there should be a call of "PLAY" for Tag games (most "dads with whistles" blow the whistle - something else that is learnt from "all the teams we play seem to do this") - but it happens anyway.

Even with the much vaunted ELRA refs I hear other clubs have in abundance...


And I do agree with OB that this is something that should be tidied up. Do we hold play up until the receiving side is ready, or do we allow the kick to be taken and if the receiving side isn't ready that's their lookout?

It isn't clear in the book. And it is clear from this discussion that different referees handle it differently.

Personally, I'm of the view that the kicking side should control when to take the kick, not the receivers. But that doesn't mean I'd actually have the bottle to let a restart be taken in a county cup final when the scoring side were still getting a drink.

 

[mark.lucas]

I think the OP may have been asking a hypothetical question anyway, I don't quite believe the scenario posted.

Midi rugby is no longer an RFU term but it used to mean U11 and U12.

At that age group they play sideways across the pitch and never have conversions anyway, so the tournament is a red herring, the possibility of haring off to do a kick off arises (in theory) after every score.

I think almost everyone on the thread is agreed that it's not appropriate in midi rugby.
99% of the time I would also hold them up and not allow it - (but i can just imagine a scenario where red are gloating and arsing about and taking ages to form up, and blue on their own, without the aid of instructions from the coach , manage to organise a restart more quickly thanred would have liked, which I would allow).

Many clubs do play across full pitches for tournaments as it is the only way to have enough pitches available on the day - and the Marlow tournament I'm reffing at in a couple of week's time will be doing this, and for many smaller clubs this all they have anyway. (As an aside, my son's club have two properly marked pitches at U11 and U12 - and only yesterday, the visitors were very jealous and their kickers weren't used to conversions).

However, in all the U7-U12 games / tournaments I have ever reffed, I have never seen a team attempt a quick restart, and if I did I would bring it back until the defence was behind the 5m or 7m line (depending on which age group) on the basis of sportsmanlike behaviour. Not only that, but there would certainly be some disgruntled coaches / parents if it was allowed.

As has previously been stated, at virtually every restart I have to say to the kicker that he can play when he wants to - they are instinctively waiting for a whistle.

 

[crossref]

(As an aside, my son's club have two properly marked pitches at U11 and U12 - and only yesterday, the visitors were very jealous and their kickers weren't used to conversions)..

U111 size pitches with posts at each end?
I am impressed. for the years my son played U7 to U12 I never once saw a half-size pitch with posts at each end. It would take a very large rugby club with a lot of space to devote the equivalent of a pitch permanently to mini/midi rugby.

I HAVE seen, for tournaments, half-size pitches marked out, ie the lines marked. But they have always been temporary markings on a regular pitch. So there will often be a single set of posts, on the half-way line, never saw them used.

 

[PaulDG]

U11 size pitches with posts at each end?

Luton have U11/12 sized pitches (and I think posts at each end). Much bigger than a half sized pitch.

 

[crossref]

Luton have U11/12 sized pitches (and I think posts at each end). Much bigger than a half sized pitch.

in which case they are too big for u11/u12

- full size pitch is max 100m x 70m
- U11/U12 pitch is Under 11 and Under 12 is maximum 60 x 43 + 5 m for ingoal areas

60x43 is deliberately chosen so that you can fit two of them in a standard pitch, by playing sideways

- 60m means that the 5m lines become your try lines, and the touchlines become your DBLs
- 43m means that the 5m line becomes one touchline (so the posts are safely 5m away) and the other touchline is 2m from the halfway (and so safely 4m from the other u11 pitch next to it.)

just smaller than half an adult pitch.

links-
http://www.irblaws.com/EN/laws/2/1/2/before-the-match/the-ground/the-plan/#clause_2
http://www.rfu.com/TheGame/~/media/Files/2011/ManagingRugby/LegalAndAdmin/RFU Regulation 15 pdf.ashx

 

[RugbyDoc]

Thanks for words of wisdom. At our local festival (Spalding) I particularly layed the law down from the start for U9/10/11/12 about no quick starts. We'll not be going to Norfolk again for a bit, so I guess we won't see that again for a while.

 

[PaulDG]

in which case they are too big for u11/u12

No, they're correct.

Many adult pitches are not full size.

Most of the time bigger gaps are put between the pitches near the half way line.

 

[crossref]

No, they're correct.

.

.
I guess to setle that you'll have to get your tape measure out this Sunday and report back!

- U11/U12 pitch - regualtion maximum 60 x 43 (+ 5 m for ingoal areas)

that would be a very small adult pitch

 

[PaulDG]

.
I guess to setle that you'll have to get your tape measure out this Sunday and report back!

- U11/U12 pitch - regualtion maximum 60 x 43 (+ 5 m for ingoal areas)

that would be a very small adult pitch

An adult pitch can be up 70m wide - but many are less, so it's normal for U11/12 pitches to be "shorter" than 60m.

It's also normal to cone one touch line around 5m from the centre line, as making it the 2m you suggest would give a gap between pitches of 4m which is below the 5m minimum separation recommended by the RFU.

Hence many U11/U12 pitches are actually about 55 x 40 ( + 5m in-goals).

 

[crossref]

Hence many U11/U12 pitches are actually about 55 x 40 ( + 5m in-goals).

that's also my experience, I agree with this estimate.

But I think we lost the sense of the thread here. You said earlier that

Luton have U11/12 sized pitches (and I think posts at each end). Much bigger than a half sized pitch.

I was just saying that if they are 'much bigger' than half an adult pitch, then they might well be more than 60x43.. ?

 

[Davet]

Half an adult pitch would be 50m x 35

A pitch 60 x 43 is about 20% larger in each direction (roughly speaking), and may qualify as "much" bigger, surely?

 

[Bunniksider]

Half an adult pitch would be 50m x 35....................

No that would be a quarter of an adult pitch. :rc:

 

[PaulDG]

I was just saying that if they are 'much bigger' than half an adult pitch, then they might well be more than 60x43.. ?

No, I believe they're 60x43.

At around 10% increase each direction, the actual increase in playing area (over the "usual") is considerable - around an extra 380 square metres if I've multiplied it correctly.