Restarts in midi

[Dickie E]

Exactly what I was going to write Didds.

As an RFU educator, who teaches Mini Midi Referees I would say that this tactic is counterproductive to the aims and values of Mini Midi Rugby.

Think about what we are trying to achieve with these kids. Is it to find out ways of "catching out" the opposition, or is it about teaching the basics and reinforcing them with Rugby's values?

I would be most dissapointed if I saw a referee allow this.

I agree. I wouldn't allow it. The elimination of the conversion is not an invitation for this nonsensical practice.

 

[Davet]

If you want to be ludicrously literal ...

I have pointed out one area where you cannot draw a conclusion from the kick-0ff because it is clearly different (ref's whistle) and I am sure you have said "in your own time" or something similar.

OB I am not concerned here with Law 6, but Law 13.

It requires that the oppoisition be behind their own 10m line - at a kick off. I would read that as being a restart kick from the centre as well - in the same way, when the law requires the kickers to be behind the ball, at a kick-off; and that the ball must travel 10 from a kick-off I interpret these to apply to a restart kick from the middle as well - though this is not specified in Law.

If you want to treat a restart kick from the middle as a kick off then surely the relevant bits of Law 13 should be treated equally?

 

[Davet]

The only requirement about the quick kick off is if it is with the same ball.

Law reference regarding a quick kick-off, please.

 

[Drift]

Law reference regarding a quick kick-off, please.

I got told that by another referee and never questioned it. I don't think it is an actual law though.

 

[crossref]

Law reference regarding a quick kick-off, please.

[LAWS]2.6 SPARE BALLS
Spare balls may be available during a match, but a team must not gain or attempt to gain an unfair advantage by using them or changing them. [/LAWS]

I thnik that covers it (for me)

 

[Davet]

Crossref - but where is a "Quick Kick-Off" specified?

Rhetorical Question.

It isn't.

There is - in my view - no such beast.

Law 13 requires that all the opposition be behind their 10m line when a kick-off takes place (and see discussion above about treating kick-off and restart kicks the same).

If you are going to disregard that part of Law 13, then why not disregard the bits that require the ball to travel 10m, or for the kickers team to be behind the ball...

As a realistic issue I don't think it is at all common - after all when there is a conversion the scoring team will retire as that is set up, so never an issue in reality. In the OP case, where there is no conversion to allow a QKO seems like a silly idea, resulting in no more than a foot race to the middle. Indeed if one of the opposition gets just to his side of half way and charges down the QKO would you let that stand (oppo played it within 10m is usually play on, so if you have waived the requirement to get behind the 10m line I think you are hoist with your own petard) - as a ref I would suggest you simply say "Wait - they need to get behind their 10m Line", or if they beat you to iot Blow the whistle and get the kick retaken - exactly as the Law requires.

 

[crossref]

I think the OP may have been asking a hypothetical question anyway, I don't quite believe the scenario posted.

Midi rugby is no longer an RFU term but it used to mean U11 and U12.

At that age group they play sideways across the pitch and never have conversions anyway, so the tournament is a red herring, the possibility of haring off to do a kick off arises (in theory) after every score.

I think almost everyone on the thread is agreed that it's not appropriate in midi rugby.
99% of the time I would also hold them up and not allow it - (but i can just imagine a scenario where red are gloating and arsing about and taking ages to form up, and blue on their own, without the aid of instructions from the coach , manage to organise a restart more quickly thanred would have liked, which I would allow).

 

[Davet]

Because you feel that gloating and arsing about deserves punishment... ?

 

[crossref]

Because you feel that gloating and arsing about deserves punishment... ?

well it's never happened anyway, in practice whenever a team has tried it I have always stopped them, for whatever reason.

 

[Davet]

Good. - all that's needed is a sharp "OK - Lets get on with it!"

 

[PaulDG]

At that age group they play sideways across the pitch and never have conversions anyway, so the tournament is a red herring, the possibility of haring off to do a kick off arises (in theory) after every score.

Actually, they do have conversions, but always from in front of the posts.

Though at festivals, conversions are often not allowed as they eat into the very limited match time.

I think almost everyone on the thread is agreed that it's not appropriate in midi rugby.
99% of the time I would also hold them up and not allow it - (but i can just imagine a scenario where red are gloating and arsing about and taking ages to form up, and blue on their own, without the aid of instructions from the coach , manage to organise a restart more quickly than red would have liked, which I would allow).

Sometimes the Gamesmanship that can go on in U7-U12 has to be seen to be believed.. The kids are competitive, of course, but they're learning the ropes for goodness sake and nothing is really gained by the smart Alec coach reliving his own, probably failed, playing days by getting the kids to exploit every possible grey area in the rules instead of concentrating on getting them to run straight and offload before being tackled!

So in what might be a 5 minute each way game (or 10 minutes one way only), you see coaches using psychological tricks such as not coming to the pitch until a minute after the allocated KO time, taking water breaks to run the clock down and so on.

And the guys in the middle of this with whistles in their hands are unlikely to be even ELRA qualified as, even where a squad has a qualified ref, he/she might not be able to spend all day at the festival anyway.

So things go wrong. Occasionally, restarts happen which shouldn't. Occasionally a team is penalised because of a remark made by a spectator and so on.

But some people say it's all good fun. (My own kids hated festivals - the eldest in particular hated the loss of his entire Sunday for perhaps 40 minutes on the pitch. I don't think he was alone in that.)

 

[didds]

just to add to Paul's points above, some festibvals don;t have pitches adjacent to posts either so there isn;t even the option of taking a conversion available

didds

 

[didds]

My own kids hated festivals - the eldest in particular hated the loss of his entire Sunday for perhaps 40 minutes on the pitch. I don't think he was alone in that.

Purely speaking as an individual here, I totally agree with your son. Festivals ARE the spawn of Satan.

didds

 

[crossref]

Actually, they do have conversions, but always from in front of the posts.

well, my son played U11 ant U12 for, cough, two seasons, and I never saw a conversion.
The posts of course, are on the 'half-way' line (as you are playing sideways).
I never saw them used home, away or tournament.

 

[OB..]

The only requirement about the quick kick off is if it is with the same ball.

Technically it is a quick restart we are talking about - which is why there is a problem.

 

[OB..]

OB I am not concerned here with Law 6, but Law 13.

You have to use both.

It requires that the oppoisition be behind their own 10m line - at a kick off. I would read that as being a restart kick from the centre as well - in the same way, when the law requires the kickers to be behind the ball, at a kick-off; and that the ball must travel 10 from a kick-off I interpret these to apply to a restart kick from the middle as well - though this is not specified in Law.

If you want to treat a restart kick from the middle as a kick off then surely the relevant bits of Law 13 should be treated equally?

We all agree that Law 13 is a mess in distinguishing the two and then failing to follow up on it properly. For sound practical reasons we treat them as the same – EXCEPT in the one respect drawn from Law 6: the referee does not whistle for a restart. We are already therefore treating a restart as different in this respect. Arguments about ignoring the rest of Law 13 are irrelevant because we already make a distinction.

This leaves open the question of when a team can take the restart kick. I'm sure most of us have said "In your own time" or similar.

as a ref I would suggest you simply say "Wait - they need to get behind their 10m Line", or if they beat you to iot Blow the whistle and get the kick
retaken - exactly as the Law requires.

However Davet is arguing that in fact the opponents can delay the restart. There is nothing in law either way on this. Law 13.4 does not say what to do if the opponents are not behind their 10m line simply because it does not matter – the referee will not blow his whistle for the kick-off until both teams are ready. There does not need to be eg a provision for retaking a kick if they are in front of the 10m line.

Here is a possible scenario. With time running out Blue kick a penalty from Red's 22m line to go ahead on the scoreboard. Because it is a penalty, all their players are up there in case the kick goes wrong.

Red, taking my view, grab the ball and rush up the field; quick restart, regather, and score under the posts at the other end.

Meanwhile Blue, sharing Davet's view, jog slowly back to the10m line and argue that the referee MUST allow them time to get there before allowing the restart. They wanted to run down the clock a little without going so far as time wasting.

Basically this is not a matter of what the law says, because it is silent on this issue. I don't like giving the opponents the right to delay the restart.

[NB I am not addressing the mini question here, but the general one. Perhaps we need to shift to a new thread.]

 

[Davet]

Why do we feel the last seconds of a game are more significant than the previous 79 minutes?

Sides have the whole game to score - and sides can waste time, or slow things down at many stages of a game - man in bin etc.

If it's time wasting then FK it.

If it's not why would we all suddenly get paniced into some harum scarum rush around. If they wanted to win the game they should have played better for the last 79 minutes.

I do agree that we don't want sides deliberately delaying restarts, at any point in the game. Delaying the line out, delaying a PK, etc etc. But we manage these things throughout the game - lets manage this. Don't let the opponents saunter, warn them about time wasting, and get to the centre yourself in good time - manage it. If necessary stop the clock while you educate them about time wasting.

 

[crossref]

the quick restarts I have seen attempted weren't necessarily in the last minute of long games -- they were in short games (eg midi) where there aren't many minutes anyway, and - more often - in a situation where the scoring team have got into a habit of not being ready over a number of scores (on-field coaches, water carriers ambling, prlonged celebrations, disucsison substitutions etc etc) leading to an increasing frustration in the other team and a decision, at the next score, to teach them a lesson / take advantage of situation by starting quickly...

 

[Davet]

Crosref - that situation should have been dealt with by the ref long ago - manage it, early.

 

[crossref]

Crosref - that situation should have been dealt with by the ref long ago - manage it, early.

agreed... but i am not always the ref (alas!)