Restarts in midi

[RugbyDoc]

Usually restarts after a try and conversion are when everyone has got back in position.However, in festivals no conversions are allowed (due to space and time). we went to Norfolk recently and ref allowed team who had just had try against them to race to centre and kick the ball before opposing team got back. consequently they scored a try. This doesn't seem right but I can't find anything about this and this is the first time I've come across it.

 

[Dixie]

Hi RugbyDoc. Welcome to the forum. Let's preface the discussion by pointing out that most of our English contributors referee older age groups, so while some have profound awareness of current mini/midi rugby, for most of us it may be a little out of date.

The essence of the age-grade variations is that they are just that - variations. If they don't address a point, then normal rugby laws apply. Apart from the 7's variations, nowhere in normal rugby laws is there a requirement to wait until the oppo is fully ready and prepared before you are allowed to restart after a score. if there is no suych variation in the current mini/midi regs, then I suggest that the scoring side would be better served sprinting back than hugging and kissing in celebration of the try. If the defending side can do so, why not the attack?

 

[Davet]

Although, as Dixie is aware, some of us look at the Law book, which places a condition on the restart that the opposition to the kicking side are all behind their 10m line - this is not an offence for which there is a sanction, and therefore the concept of advantage is not relevant. It is simply a requirement that if they're in front of the 10m line the kick off is taken again.

Which, to my mind, precludes the quick KO.

 

[crossref]

my reservation: I'd want to feel that this was the children themselves thinking quickly on the spot, and not the coach standing on the DBL giving urgent instructions to a particular child right in front of him.


I'd like to reward a quick thinking eleven year old, but not a grizzled coach getting one over on opposing kids.

 

[Dixie]

Although, as Dixie is aware, some of us look at the Law book, which places a condition on the restart that the opposition to the kicking side are all behind their 10m line - this is not an offence for which there is a sanction, and therefore the concept of advantage is not relevant. It is simply a requirement that if they're in front of the 10m line the kick off is taken again.

Which, to my mind, precludes the quick KO.

:deadhorse: :clap: :biggrin: And as Davet is aware, there is a difference of opinion among referees of adult rugby as to whether a provision designed to prevent the receiving side from getting in the face of the kicking side should be used to prevent the kicking side from taking advantage if the receiving side choose to line up incorrectly.

Perhaps the key point is that there is an uncertainty, so a good coach will alert the kids to the risk and make sure they don't get caught out again.

 

[didds]

I've seen this "in action" and it is has always been accompanied by the coach "encouraging" volubly his team's players to get started.
Then the othert team gets wind of what is happening and do it themselves. And i've seen games disintergrate into nothing more than who can get the ball to the 2 guys who have sprinted to the half way (possibly already stood there) to repeat the situation ad nauseum.


Is it allowed by the laws? As we see, very possibly, even probably.

But on the basis that junior rugby is about developing players, i see little in the way of how this achieves it. When i've reffed games where this has started, I've usually found ways to circumvent it becoming farcical. This is about ALL players learning how to attack space, and support (and close space in defence). This tactic doesn't acheive that. YMMV.

didds

 

[Lex Hipkins]

If indeed it was quick thinking by one of the players (and not a cynical act by the coach .... "grizzled"? .. they are probably some child's dad!) then I am all for it. My own experiences of mini re-starts is that unfortunately most players do not have the confidence to kick with out the ref's say-so ..I have seen this misunderstanding reinforced by some mini-coaches/occasional refs insisting on blowing their whistle before every restart. My only policy as I and the young ball-carrier approach the middle is to simply say "in your own time" and let them get on with it.

 

[crossref]

Usually restarts after a try and conversion are when everyone has got back in position.However, in festivals no conversions are allowed (due to space and time). we went to Norfolk recently and ref allowed team who had just had try against them to race to centre and kick the ball before opposing team got back. consequently they scored a try. This doesn't seem right but I can't find anything about this and this is the first time I've come across it.

as an aside -- this is JUST the sort of thing that is easier to ref when you are a neutral.

if it is your team that is acting quickly (with a fellow coach of yours encouraging them) then to allow it is going to be interpreted by observers as very much like aiding and abetting

if it is your team being fooled, then stopping it is tricky as it seems a bit protective.

It's one of those situations which is tricky, whatever you do.
luckily if it was a tournament you probably had a neutral ref...... didn't you?

 

[Davet]

Dixie - yes, understand, but i regard the Laws a set of tools which we can use to manage a game.

In these cases the cry would be, "manage it!", taking due concern for the point Dixie makes.

 

[didds]

Fair points by Lex there. But it would take an exceptional 6 year old IMO to work that out by themselves. However, IF it happened then whilst applauding the work and thoughts - and allowing the try of course, I might keep an eye on the rest of the match(es) to ensure they don't degenerate into a sprint to the middle as described above.

didds

 

[Davet]

:deadhorse: :clap: :biggrin:

Dixie - I'm getting worried. What with your proclivity for carrying your own makeshift handcuffs and evident delight in sadistic bestial necrophilia... Is Slough getting to you?

 

[aggie ref]

:deadhorse: :clap: :biggrin: And as Davet is aware, there is a difference of opinion among referees of adult rugby as to whether a provision designed to prevent the receiving side from getting in the face of the kicking side should be used to prevent the kicking side from taking advantage if the receiving side choose to line up incorrectly.

Perhaps the key point is that there is an uncertainty, so a good coach will alert the kids to the risk and make sure they don't get caught out again.

You presume the law was written to "prevent the receiving side to get in the face of the kicking side"? I agree but presume also that the law was written to allow the receiving side to get behind the 10-meter side also so that the foot-races described above do not occur.


Retake the KO

 

[Dixie]

I agree but presume also that the law was written to allow the receiving side to get behind the 10-meter side also so that the foot-races described above do not occur.

Well, it's a point of view...

You'll note that the relevant law only covers kick-offs, not restarts. Probably an accident, but it's one that slightly undermines your POV.

 

[Phil E]

I've seen this "in action" and it is has always been accompanied by the coach "encouraging" volubly his team's players to get started.
Then the othert team gets wind of what is happening and do it themselves. And i've seen games disintergrate into nothing more than who can get the ball to the 2 guys who have sprinted to the half way (possibly already stood there) to repeat the situation ad nauseum.


Is it allowed by the laws? As we see, very possibly, even probably.

But on the basis that junior rugby is about developing players, i see little in the way of how this achieves it. When i've reffed games where this has started, I've usually found ways to circumvent it becoming farcical. This is about ALL players learning how to attack space, and support (and close space in defence). This tactic doesn't acheive that. YMMV.

didds

Exactly what I was going to write Didds.

As an RFU educator, who teaches Mini Midi Referees I would say that this tactic is counterproductive to the aims and values of Mini Midi Rugby.

Think about what we are trying to achieve with these kids. Is it to find out ways of "catching out" the opposition, or is it about teaching the basics and reinforcing them with Rugby's values?

I would be most dissapointed if I saw a referee allow this.

 

[The umpire]

Think about what we are trying to achieve with these kids. Is it to find out ways of "catching out" the opposition, or is it about teaching them to be alert throughout the game

fixed that for you.

 

[OB..]

Although, as Dixie is aware, some of us look at the Law book, which places a condition on the restart that the opposition to the kicking side are all behind their 10m line

No it doesn't.

We have been here before, so you know my views. Law 13 is very badly written. It takes the trouble to distinguish kick-offs from restart kicks, and then forgets about the latter after the lonely mentions in 13.2. As a consequence, 13.4 merely deals with the position of the opponents at a kick-off, not at a restart.

Law 6.A.7 (a) says the referee must blow his whistle at kick-offs, but does not mention restart kicks. It is universally agreed that this means he does not.

We also agree that the opponents must get back behind their 10m line before joining in play, but why do we need to assume that they must be allowed to do so in their own sweet time?

If Law 13 was properly written, it would cover this point.

BTW you don't need a sanction under Law 13.4 because the referee will not (usually) start play until both sides are ready.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

When my lad was small we came across a team whose coach/ref allowed them to take quick restart. He was a notorious twizzling get so it did not surprise us. He once played a 35 minute half looking for a win at u10.

Visiting that team was the only time we came across such one eyed refereeing.

 

[Davet]

OB - so by extension, at a restart kick the kickers team don't have to be behind the ball, nor does it have to travel 10m?

Really?

 

[OB..]

OB - so by extension, at a restart kick the kickers team don't have to be behind the ball, nor does it have to travel 10m?

Really?

If you want to be ludicrously literal ...

I have pointed out one area where you cannot draw a conclusion from the kick-0ff because it is clearly different (ref's whistle) and I am sure you have said "in your own time" or something similar.

 

[Drift]

Hi RugbyDoc. Welcome to the forum. Let's preface the discussion by pointing out that most of our English contributors referee older age groups, so while some have profound awareness of current mini/midi rugby, for most of us it may be a little out of date.

The essence of the age-grade variations is that they are just that - variations. If they don't address a point, then normal rugby laws apply. Apart from the 7's variations, nowhere in normal rugby laws is there a requirement to wait until the oppo is fully ready and prepared before you are allowed to restart after a score. if there is no suych variation in the current mini/midi regs, then I suggest that the scoring side would be better served sprinting back than hugging and kissing in celebration of the try. If the defending side can do so, why not the attack?

The only requirement about the quick kick off is if it is with the same ball.