[Junior] RFU U14 regs/laws

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
The language in the U15 Variations within the U15-U18 RFU AG regs. remains similar, i.e.:

"6. Law 19 Line-Out:

(a) The lineout will be uncontested.

(b) Lifting and supporting is permitted at this age group, i.e. a player may bind to a jumper until he has returned to the ground."

As such my interpretation should hold. Otherwise there is no clarity of where you ultimately introduce the element of contest once the ball is caught and the player is on the ground.
 
Last edited:

Christy


Referees in Ireland
Joined
May 25, 2016
Messages
527
Post Likes
60
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
In southern ireland ,
All youth matches are full laws .
Only exception is u13 to u 15 = there is no lifting in line outs
U 16 onwards you can lift .
All scrums are 1.5 meters push max .

7 subs max ( non rolling ) ( providing meets front row replacement criterea )
U 16 & u 18 were allowed 8 subs last year ( must have full front row cover )
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,151
Post Likes
1,842
Cheers Christy - that is what RFUland was until very very recently - full laws, no lifting, U19 global laws (ie squeezeball, wheeling, scrum push etc)

I have spoken with somebody that was significant within the RFU AG regs team until a couple of years ago. His take is Chuckie's and mine and that's what his squad played/plays.

didds
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,151
Post Likes
1,842
Still doesn't adress the "what happens when the catcher just runs up the pitch" scenario though does it.

when has the player carrying the ball left the lineout if having caught and landed he just hares off up the pitch? And is that what the law makers considered?


Let alone the esoteric and unlikely - but theoretically interesting - point raised by Dicke E.

didds
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,151
Post Likes
1,842
"When a ruck or maul develops in a lineout, and all the feet of all the
players in the ruck or maul move beyond the line of touch, the lineout
ends."

also means

- static maul shaped thing is set on catcher, ball held by catcher. No one can defend this /touch this as the lineout is not over
- maul shaped thing extends its length by three players. No one can defend/touch this as the lineout is not over
- maul shaped thing moves forward two players length. Final player still has feet behind line of touch. No one can defend/touch this as the lineout is not over
- player with ball at the head is now beyond immediate line of defenders , untouched.
- player with ball detaches from maul like thing and hares off up pitch with oppo forwards all behind him.
- any subsequent tackle and supporter running over ball has now placed all those forwards offside.

Q: Can the defending lineout players ever actually move backwards to face the ball carrying head of the maul like thing? isn;t that leaving the lineout before it is over ie the rear most feet of the maul like thing has not yet crossed the LoT ?


Of course its a daft scenario. And no i won;t be coaching it - but as much frankly because I have no faith that a referee would ever actually understand what was happening (except you guys because I've now told you!).

Extend that mail like thing's length to (say_ five players and the ball carrier could end up significantly upfield before running off. That maul like length could, with the addition of the scrum half - be effectively 9 players long, in a crocodile.

View attachment 3614


didds
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Still doesn't adress the "what happens when the catcher just runs up the pitch" scenario though does it.

when has the player carrying the ball left the lineout if having caught and landed he just hares off up the pitch? And is that what the law makers considered?


Let alone the esoteric and unlikely - but theoretically interesting - point raised by Dicke E.

didds

if he has caught it and his feet are on the ground the ball is deemed live as far as the opposition being permitted to contest. The discussion I had with the u14's coach confirms his understanding is the same and that is how they are coaching it.
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,151
Post Likes
1,842
if he has caught it and his feet are on the ground the ball is deemed live as far as the opposition being permitted to contest. The discussion I had with the u14's coach confirms his understanding is the same and that is how they are coaching it.

I agree with you Chuckie - bit that isn't what is being alluded to in chbg's post just above where the claim is the uncontested part does not end until the lineout is over. And the items listed do not cover the catcher setting off upfield - because he cannot be tackled/stopped until he (carrying the ball) has left the lineout - whatever that may mean in the contex of a lone call carrier running UP the pitch.

didds
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I agree with you Chuckie - bit that isn't what is being alluded to in chbg's post just above where the claim is the uncontested part does not end until the lineout is over. And the items listed do not cover the catcher setting off upfield - because he cannot be tackled/stopped until he (carrying the ball) has left the lineout - whatever that may mean in the contex of a lone call carrier running UP the pitch.

didds

Poor wording as usual, this time on the part of the RFU. Age grade rugby regs can be distilled into something much simpler than the rfu pump out. Read them carefully and you will see that they go lengths to repeat stuff that we accept as read but as if we are being told it for the first time! It's a case of, "Hang on, but that's what we've always understood it to be. Why are they repeating it in new language!" It just serves to confuse established coaches but is probably designed to be applied by a different and less knowledgeable audience as often happens in schools who are now finally signed up to AGR in its entirety.

The lineout ends in exactly the same way as for the full laws. That has no relevance to when the ball becomes playable/contestable and so it is an unnecessary repetition and a red herring.
 
Last edited:

Dave Elliott

Administrator
Staff member
Joined
Jan 20, 2004
Messages
293
Post Likes
56
Current Referee grade:
Level 7
Guys I'm posting this here due to heading ( thought has nothing to do with current conversations). I am a society ref, but I also coach u14,and have done since they were u12, as such I ref home games and some away. As I read it the rfu age grade rules are only those stated, if not stated in these rules you default to world laws?
my question is this. In the under 14 rules it states " The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves thelineout or the ball goes beyond the 15m or into the 5m channel. " what I'm being asked is as it's uncontested can the opposition tackle or go for ball once player has it in their hands.
My understanding of uncontested line out is just the throw is uncontested, you must win the throw,after that point it is the same as a normal line out meaning tackle, maul and so on?
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,151
Post Likes
1,842
which is pretty much what Chuckie and I have pragmatically suggested - yes.

If only on the basis that is we accept "uncontested" remains until the lineout is over you end up possibly in an extreme example Dicke's no movement scenario, and my 9 man crocodile scenario... wierd, and unlikely - but theoretically possible.

didds
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
which is pretty much what Chuckie and I have pragmatically suggested - yes.

If only on the basis that is we accept "uncontested" remains until the lineout is over you end up possibly in an extreme example Dicke's no movement scenario, and my 9 man crocodile scenario... wierd, and unlikely - but theoretically possible.

didds

We don't actually accept that the uncontested element remains until the lineout is over. We accept that the ball is live as far as the contest in the lineout once the player has caught the ball and his feet are on the ground.

Because of the skill element of the throw, we only accept that the throwing team must win the throw to the extent that it is thrown down the middle straight and the throwing team have first dibbs at catching it cleanly. This is true whether it is the intended recipient or, more often than not one of his team mates, because it is over/under thrown. At the extreme it is missed by all, hits the ground and then all bets are off as we want play to continue.

Note, per the RFU guidance, throws not straight are treated differently between u14 (t/o ball and new lineout) & u15 (potential advantage).
 
Last edited:

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Guys I'm posting this here due to heading ( thought has nothing to do with current conversations). I am a society ref, but I also coach u14,and have done since they were u12, as such I ref home games and some away. As I read it the rfu age grade rules are only those stated, if not stated in these rules you default to world laws?
my question is this. In the under 14 rules it states " The lineout ends when the ball or a player carrying it leaves thelineout or the ball goes beyond the 15m or into the 5m channel. " what I'm being asked is as it's uncontested can the opposition tackle or go for ball once player has it in their hands.
My understanding of uncontested line out is just the throw is uncontested, you must win the throw,after that point it is the same as a normal line out meaning tackle, maul and so on?

Age grade laws are variations and so do not stand in their own right as I believe it. As I alluded to in another post they are unnecessarily confusing. Probably written by the older cousin of our 12 year old who writes laws for WR? Perhaps I should not be insulting to 12 year olds as we are talking age grade? I do them an injustice!
 

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,151
Post Likes
1,842
I was discussing my silly #66 idea with one of my fellow U14 coaches yesterday, and he pointed out that we could put 13 players in the lineout, and have a receiver and the thrower.

having thrown and caught, with the "uncontested until the lineout ends" suggestion, we could then form a 15 man crocodile, with the ball at the front, and just walk forward maintaining the crocodile. the lineout has not ended until our last man's feet have passed the LoT. Which for a lineout within 10m (say) of the opposition tryline is an undefendable try scored!

which would of course be blatantly stupid!

didds
 

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
I was discussing my silly #66 idea with one of my fellow U14 coaches yesterday, and he pointed out that we could put 13 players in the lineout, and have a receiver and the thrower.

having thrown and caught, with the "uncontested until the lineout ends" suggestion, we could then form a 15 man crocodile, with the ball at the front, and just walk forward maintaining the crocodile. the lineout has not ended until our last man's feet have passed the LoT. Which for a lineout within 10m (say) of the opposition tryline is an undefendable try scored!

which would of course be blatantly stupid!

didds

Is your fellow u14 easily led?

Sorry to remind you. The lineout is uncontested up to the point that the player has caught the ball and is on the ground.

I doubt you would have an obliging opposition who were likely to stand off. But perhaps if the opposition knew it was you, they might be prepared to let you try and they could stand there ****ing themselves laughing!

But on a technical point, as your "maul like thing" is not a maul without engagement, he would be deemed to have left the line lineout once he broke beyond the line of touch, so the rearmost foot would not apply

Let me know if you do try and I'll make the effort to come and watch.

At that age group you might just be best focusing your attention on drilling them to keep their hands out of rucks?
 
Last edited:

didds

Resident Club Coach
Joined
Jan 27, 2004
Messages
12,151
Post Likes
1,842
Well, as Ive said several times _I_ agree with you. its other(s) here who have claimed that the uncontested lineout remains uncontested until the lineout is over and have then realed off a list of criteria that makes a lineout over . My silly post above is an example of why such an approach cannot possibly work.

I thought that much was clear TBH.

meanwhile in a parallel universe it seems there is no definitive answer available and its a buggers muddle. I've asked alws@rfu.com, but the silence in response is deafening. I wouldn't have a clue if the non maul rear foot thing is correct as nobody else seems to know definitively either. Meanwhile FWIW it strikes me (in a purely theoretical way I hasten to add) that the defenders could never touch this situation IF the rear foot thing is correct - because the lineout isn't over so the uncontested part is not over. And debates about the "Italian lineout tactic" here have concluded (mostly!) that defenders cannot leave the lineout line to any depth!


Rest assured Im not going to waste my time coaching this (or anything else) that is pointless . The above is an illustration that the alternative view to you and I wont; work

didds
 
Last edited:

ChuckieB

Rugby Expert
Joined
Feb 28, 2017
Messages
1,057
Post Likes
115
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Well, as Ive said several times _I_ agree with you. its other(s) here who have claimed that the uncontested lineout remains uncontested until the lineout is over and have then realed off a list of criteria that makes a lineout over . My silly post above is an example of why such an approach cannot possibly work.

I thought that much was clear TBH.

meanwhile in a parallel universe it seems there is no definitive answer available and its a buggers muddle. I've asked alws@rfu.com, but the silence in response is deafening. I wouldn't have a clue if the non maul rear foot thing is correct as nobody else seems to know definitively either. Meanwhile FWIW it strikes me (in a purely theoretical way I hasten to add) that the defenders could never touch this situation IF the rear foot thing is correct - because the lineout isn't over so the uncontested part is not over. And debates about the "Italian lineout tactic" here have concluded (mostly!) that defenders cannot leave the lineout line to any depth!


Rest assured Im not going to waste my time coaching this (or anything else) that is pointless . The above is an illustration that the alternative view to you and I wont; work

didds

The RFU, having changed the ethos which leans further towards the development while lessening the absolute competitive element at these levels, seems to suggest such matters aren't that important.

So long as you, the coaches of the teams you are likely to play against (hopefully evenly matched as regards stage of development) and the referee (more often than not a club qualified ref for friendlies, that's if you don't have a league/pool system) are reasonably agreed on how you want to play it, you can't go far wrong.
 
Top