[Junior] RFU U14 regs/laws

[crossref]

as I said I suspect he was a club appointment, but he was wearing society kit, so i presume at some time he'll do a game where he is assessed. I can see that may not be any U19 game - but I can;t see he'd permit TH boring at any senior levcel surely? It was very obvious (and also undoubtedly not deliberate - he just lost his arse sideways all the time)

I dind;t mean to imply he would be assessed at an U14 game

didds

you're not supposed to wear society kit if it's not a society appointment ... so maybe it was.

 

[Pegleg]

you're not supposed to wear society kit if it's not a society appointment.

Interesting. Why is that? We don't have a similar policy here.

 

[crossref]

Interesting. Why is that? We don't have a similar policy here.

Are you sure ?

By appointing a ref the Society is endorsing the ref , and saying this ref has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game .

If you have got that , then get yourself appointed. If you haven't then don't wear the kit (or don't do the game)

 

[OB..]

.........and how did you assess the one decision he did make? It was a hugely important one!

100% correct. There were other games on as well, and they followed suit.

 

[Nigib]

Are you sure ?

By appointing a ref the Society is endorsing the ref , and saying this ref has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game .

If you have got that , then get yourself appointed. If you haven't then don't wear the kit (or don't do the game)

Yes, this, but also if you've been appointed by your Society then you have their insurance behind you. Wearing Society kit without at least telling a Committee member could put you in a difficult position legally if anything untoward occurs.

 

[Pegleg]

Are you sure ?

By appointing a ref the Society is endorsing the ref , and saying this ref has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game .

If you have got that , then get yourself appointed. If you haven't then don't wear the kit (or don't do the game)

Yes I am sure! Our societies only appoint from Youth up. Below that you only need to hold the require license for the level of the game. No one can ref any game in Wales unless they hold a WRU (or above) license but games ar not appointe below youth level. In fact if a club asked for a referee to be apointed they would be told to arrangre one themselves, subject to the ref having a license for the level of game they were asked to do. Clubs cannot appoint a ref unless he has a license.

If I am a society ref I will hold a license of at, at least L1 which means I can referee any rugby up to U16. If I hold a L2 I can referee up to NON welsh league stuff above that we have L3 which takes us up to the semi pro Welsh leagues. All L£ can go as low as they wish s can L2s. Any society referee will "has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game".

Strangly enough I do know how our system works.

 

[Pegleg]

Yes, this, but also if you've been appointed by your Society then you have their insurance behind you. Wearing Society kit without at least telling a Committee member could put you in a difficult position legally if anything untoward occurs.

In England that may be the case. But, we have a different system. Is is done by license. Below Society appointment level (Youth), clubs appoint a ref with the required license ( ([MINIMUM] Tag license for TAG games and L1 from U9- U16) which acts as the insurance certificate. From youth upwards even with a license I can't referee any game unless appointed. EVen Nigel Owens can't rock up and referee Upper cwmbyyer 2nds V Aberflyarff 2nds unless he get the go ahead form the appontment officer. But I can rock up to the local park on a sunday with my license and ref any game I'm asked up to U16 (as can Nige).

To be a society ref you must hold a license. I guess this is not the case in England (judging from your and Crossrefs replies)

My question was aiming to explore the difference in the two systems.

 

[crossref]

Yes I am sure! Our societies only appoint from Youth up. Below that you only need to hold the require license for the level of the game. No one can ref any game in Wales unless they hold a WRU (or above) license but games ar not appointe below youth level. In fact if a club asked for a referee to be apointed they would be told to arrangre one themselves, subject to the ref having a license for the level of game they were asked to do. Clubs cannot appoint a ref unless he has a license.

If I am a society ref I will hold a license of at, at least L1 which means I can referee any rugby up to U16. If I hold a L2 I can referee up to NON welsh league stuff above that we have L3 which takes us up to the semi pro Welsh leagues. All L£ can go as low as they wish s can L2s. Any society referee will "has the necessary skills and experience to ref this particular game".

Strangly enough I do know how our system works.

I don't doubt that all this is correct , but you haven't really addressed the question here .. should you really be wearing a society shirt to ref a game when you have not been appointed by the society

 

[Pegleg]

Well I gues the first point is we wear WRU shirts. so if you want to be picky you could say it is slightly different. However, We ARE society / WRU referees and we ARE appointed under the system / protocol laid down by the Union / Society. The right to appoint a ref to an age grade game has be delegated to the clubs. Clubs who act a defacto WRU appointment officers.

So why would we not wear the shirt which we have been given by said Union? I actually consider it respecting the players.

 

[crossref]

Well I gues the first point is we wear WRU shirts. so if you want to be picky you could say it is slightly different. However, We ARE society / WRU referees and we ARE appointed under the system / protocol laid down by the Union / Society. The right to appoint a ref to an age grade game has be delegated to the clubs. Clubs who act a defacto WRU appointment officers.

So why would we not wear the shirt which we have been given by said Union? I actually consider it respecting the players.

yes, if you have been appointed according to the protocol laid down by the WRU, then I completely agree you can wear the WRU shirt.

above we were discussing a situation where someone has NOT been appointed according to the protocol of the Society .. and so in that situation he shouldn't really wear the Society shirt.

 

[Pegleg]

Hence why I asked "Why is that?" Took a while to get an answer. I know whe all , as unions have different protocols about admin etc. I had hoped to get a answer to make the English system clear to me.

So who covers you for insurance if you are not appointed via the Union and instead are appointed by the clubs. Who decides that you are qualified to ref a game. If I was at your club on Sunday morning and you were looking for a ref. What would it take for me to be "appointed" to the game?

 

[crossref]

Clubs are allowed to appoint a ref to a game. You would be a club official covered by the clubs and the RFU insurance.

You would be in exactly the same position as the club appointed coaches.

 

[crossref]

Clubs are allowed to appoint a ref to a game. You would be a club official covered by the clubs and the RFU insurance.

You would be in exactly the same position as the club appointed coaches.

Q if you were at my club on Sunday , in England, and got a game, would you wear your WRU shirt for that (let's assume you had that , and also a plain shirt, both in your bag with you)

 

[Pegleg]

How do you establish that I am "STE" to do the game? We have our licenses which we sgould allways tyake and show to club officials if requested. I assume that my license has no legal standing in England.

I do know. I guess my first consideration would be colours. I do know that a few yers ago a ref was telling a group of us that he had been invited to take a game in the Bristol area (an end of season senior friendly) and he was told by the WRU that the English side had to ask through the RFU for permission for him to be appointed. However, for festivals at age group level as long as the host club confirmed that the aapropriate cover is in place you could do the game.

Now in every festival I've done in England we have been given a festival shirt so I've never needed to consider the question. That said since I see other RFU refs wearing Their society shirts, I had always assumed that whatever appointment system the RFU use means that the referee's appointment is, by protocol, a RFU (society) sanctioned appointment and therfore wearing a society shirt would be acceptable.

Over the border is different with the WRU not having the right to appoint in RFU land. Therfore, I would not wear a WRU shirt outside their area of control.

 

[crossref]

How do you establish that I am "STE" to do the game? We have our licenses which we sgould allways tyake and show to club officials if requested. I assume that my license has no legal standing in England.

I would ask you about your experience and qualifications and make a judgement. I wouldn't ask you to referee a L6 1st XV game, because I wouldn't know enough about the WRU system/grades to be able to make a judgement about whether you are qualified. I'd have no problem at all asking you to take on our U16s

although having said that - the scenario is something like :
- you are here to watch your local welsh club who are on tour, and playing my club in a friendly
- the society ref I have arranged pulls a hammie and cannot continue
- there is no one I know on the touchline who can ref
- you say : I am a WRU ref and I am qualified to do the game

After a short conversation, you probably would get the gig.

Would you wear your WRU shirt (let's assume for sake of arguemnt you had a choice of shirts in your bag)

 

[Pegleg]

As per my last post:

"Over the border is different with the WRU not having the right to appoint in RFU land. Therfore, I would not wear a WRU shirt outside their area of control."

 

[Pegleg]

This is where I favour our system. We carry said licence. That tells clubs the level were are considered able to ref:

Tag Cert = Tag

Level 1 = ANYTHING up to U16
Level 2 = Anything up to what we used to call "district" games (not Welsh leagues).
Level three = Anything up to Welsh Premiership (with caveats).


Level three is, in practice, subdivided Nigel and I are the same grade (technically) BUT Level three is in itself sub divided and then of course we have panel appointments etc. I am not on the list for Championship nor Welsh prem.


Therefore a club can ,with confidence, appoint anyone carrying a Level one, two or three photo licence to an under 16s game. After that the appointment is made by the WRU appointed appointment officer for the area the game is being played in. So I could not be in the Cardiff Clubhouse and be appointed to their game against Pontypridd on the chairman's whim. Let's say I was there and the referee cried of late. The Club would ring the WRU (late call) number and the WRU referee's department would make the call. So the club's officials could say: " Hi Paul (Adams) Alan has cried off so we have no ref today. However, Pegleg is here will you sanction him doing the game?" Paul would then make the call and he would speak to me and record the appointment officially.

 

[crossref]

we are agreeing -- if you are properly appointed by a body, then you can wear the shirt. If you are not properly appointed you shouldn't wear the shirt.

in the scenario above -- if a club asked me to ref a game , then if I wanted to wear a society shirt I'd call the society and ask them to put the game on the system and appoint me to it - they'd do that even if it was a game we wouldn't normally appoint to, like u16 -- but of course if the game was above my grade level, then they'd say no.

 

[didds]

AIUI in reality "anybody" can ref a match in England as long as they have a whistle!

They would be covered by basic RFU insurances.

Many AG games are reffed by a coach with no refereeing training other than watching Wayne Barnes on TV and listening to his dad Stuart commentate. (that's a joke incidentally)

I personally think the WRU coaching courses with reffing sections and set up has great merit.

didds

 

[Pegleg]

we are agreeing -- if you are properly appointed by a body, then you can wear the shirt. If you are not properly appointed you shouldn't wear the shirt.

in the scenario above -- if a club asked me to ref a game , then if I wanted to wear a society shirt I'd call the society and ask them to put the game on the system and appoint me to it - they'd do that even if it was a game we wouldn't normally appoint to, like u16 -- but of course if the game was above my grade level, then they'd say no.

The difference being A club appointment on a Sunday to a U12 game is A WRU appointment. We have no "unauthorised" appointments.

Keeps it simple.