[Junior] RFU U14 regs/laws

[didds]

I am hopefully assisting with our U14s this season so i just had a quick look at the RFU u14 regs

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Docu...FURegulation15Appendix8.2016-2017_English.pdf

I actually think the following cannot mean what they seem to be saying?

[LAWS]RFU U14 reg 1. General:
a) The object of the game is to score a try by placing the ball with a
downward pressure on or behind the opponents’ goal line.
[/LAWS]

downward pressure when carrying it included in that then... ??!!

[LAWS]RFU U14 reg. 6. Penalties:
a) Following the below offences, a penalty will be awarded to the nonoffending
team:
...
iv. When a player prevents an opponent from passing the
ball immediately after a tackle.[/LAWS]

So a jackler with hands on the ball is PK'd because the tackled player who hasn't yet released may yet pass the ball?

ah... but....

[LAWS]RFU U14 Reg 8.
l) When the tackle is made and the ball carrier is on the ground,
supporting players may:
i. rip the ball from the ball carrier;[/LAWS]

Ah - so 6.a.iv isn't actually real then? WTF is 6.a.iv about then? (ISTR this is actually replicated min the full laws?!)




[LAWS]RFU U14 Reg 9 Kicking
e) After a try is scored, the scorers attempt to score a goal by taking
a kick at goal; this also applies to a penalty try. [/LAWS]

errr... new trials? yes? no?

[LAWS]10. Actions Inside the 22 Metre Line (the “22”):
a) If the ball is kicked from within the 22 by the defending team and
goes directly into touch, a lineout will be awarded to the non-kicking
team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline [/LAWS]

I have absolutely no idea what on earth "10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline" means - this is a LINEOUT?


I am sure these are oversights/mistakes rather that "real"

Finally

[LAWS]RFU U14 Reg 8. The Tackle, Maul and Ruck:
a) .... Where the ball carrier is taken to ground, the referee will call “Tackle-Release”.[/LAWS]

I'll be listening ;-)

And I appreciate may here won;t be in RFUland anyway, and/or dont; often if at all referee U14s!

didds

 

[ChuckieB]

I am hopefully assisting with our U14s this season so i just had a quick look at the RFU u14 regs

http://www.englandrugby.com/mm/Docu...FURegulation15Appendix8.2016-2017_English.pdf

I actually think the following cannot mean what they seem to be saying?

[LAWS]RFU U14 reg 1. General:
a) The object of the game is to score a try by placing the ball with a
downward pressure on or behind the opponents’ goal line.
[/LAWS]

downward pressure when carrying it included in that then... ??!!

[LAWS]RFU U14 reg. 6. Penalties:
a) Following the below offences, a penalty will be awarded to the nonoffending
team:
...
iv. When a player prevents an opponent from passing the
ball immediately after a tackle.[/LAWS]

So a jackler with hands on the ball is PK'd because the tackled player who hasn't yet released may yet pass the ball?

ah... but....

[LAWS]RFU U14 Reg 8.
l) When the tackle is made and the ball carrier is on the ground,
supporting players may:
i. rip the ball from the ball carrier;[/LAWS]

Ah - so 6.a.iv isn't actually real then? WTF is 6.a.iv about then? (ISTR this is actually replicated min the full laws?!)




[LAWS]RFU U14 Reg 9 Kicking
e) After a try is scored, the scorers attempt to score a goal by taking
a kick at goal; this also applies to a penalty try. [/LAWS]

errr... new trials? yes? no?

[LAWS]10. Actions Inside the 22 Metre Line (the “22”):
a) If the ball is kicked from within the 22 by the defending team and
goes directly into touch, a lineout will be awarded to the non-kicking
team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline [/LAWS]

I have absolutely no idea what on earth "10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline" means - this is a LINEOUT?


I am sure these are oversights/mistakes rather that "real"

Finally

[LAWS]RFU U14 Reg 8. The Tackle, Maul and Ruck:
a) .... Where the ball carrier is taken to ground, the referee will call “Tackle-Release”.[/LAWS]

I'll be listening ;-)

And I appreciate may here won;t be in RFUland anyway, and/or dont; often if at all referee U14s!
S
didds

don't quote me, but I think it is a typo. My recollection is that at the lower age groups restarts are mostly about free passes.

so for kicks that end up going directly into touch:

if it is taken backin it is a free pass 10m in from where it was kicked;
if it is from within, gain in ground is allowed, and it is a free pass from 10m from where the ball went out.

lineouts occur for ball going indirectly into touch only.

you are a brave man taking on something below u 15's. It's a nightmare of variations!

 

[didds]

ah - that makes sense ChuckieB...

although the bloody reg does say

"a lineout will be awarded to the non-kicking team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline"

i can see that yes maybe that shoud be

"a free pass will be awarded to the non-kicking team 10 metres in from where the ball crossed the touchline"

cheers

didds

 

[Pegleg]

I did an age grade event in England last year and had a long discussion with the torganiser over the nonsense that were the variations. As you have highlighted they are full of contradictions. It is up to the poor referee and coaches to try and make sense of them.

The guy who writes them failed the interview for writing WR's law book.

 

[OB..]

[LAWS]RFU U14 reg. 6. Penalties:
a) Following the below offences, a penalty will be awarded to the nonoffending
team:
...
iv. When a player prevents an opponent from passing the
ball immediately after a tackle.[/LAWS]

So a jackler with hands on the ball is PK'd because the tackled player who hasn't yet released may yet pass the ball?

ah... but....

[LAWS]RFU U14 Reg 8.
l) When the tackle is made and the ball carrier is on the ground,
supporting players may:
i. rip the ball from the ball carrier;[/LAWS]

Ah - so 6.a.iv isn't actually real then? WTF is 6.a.iv about then? (ISTR this is actually replicated min the full laws?!)

Yes, it is from the full laws. My view has always been that it can be legal to play the ball, even if it prevents the tackled player from passing it, but it is illegal to play the man.

 

[didds]

Well today's game went well. Very pleased with our lads, and udos to the oppo for coming out a converted try ahead.

main points if I was a ref coach would be

* blue TH prop boring all first half. Probably all game but 2nd half I couldn't see his side. I suspect not deliberately, but he lost his arse all the time

* when one side went down to a 7 man scrum (injuries and low numbers) there was no insistence on equaling scrum numbers, nor usign the WR U19 laws for scrum formations

* as per U14 regs there is no option at a line out squint throw.

Question for you guys from me as a coach noticing the above - when is it appropriate to point each of those "errors" ? I'm not one for shouting out at refs during the game. U14 doesn't permit coaches on the pitch (quite rightly IMO) so no opportunity for a wuiet word in an ear during the game. Half time? Full time? Full time in the bar? never?

I wouldn't want to appear a smartarse, and nobody seemed in any danger overall. It just doesn;t help players develop/next week's ref etc.

From our coaching perspective - pleased. captain/pack leader needs quicker decsion making as to what to do at lineout time, and some direction/help towards lineout defense maybe (uncontested at U14 here).

didds


cheers

didds

 

[Nigib]

Well today's game went well. Very pleased with our lads, and udos to the oppo for coming out a converted try ahead.

main points if I was a ref coach would be

* blue TH prop boring all first half. Probably all game but 2nd half I couldn't see his side. I suspect not deliberately, but he lost his arse all the time

* when one side went down to a 7 man scrum (injuries and low numbers) there was no insistence on equaling scrum numbers, nor usign the WR U19 laws for scrum formations

* as per U14 regs there is no option at a line out squint throw.

Question for you guys from me as a coach noticing the above - when is it appropriate to point each of those "errors" ? I'm not one for shouting out at refs during the game. U14 doesn't permit coaches on the pitch (quite rightly IMO) so no opportunity for a wuiet word in an ear during the game. Half time? Full time? Full time in the bar? never?

I wouldn't want to appear a smartarse, and nobody seemed in any danger overall. It just doesn;t help players develop/next week's ref etc.

From our coaching perspective - pleased. captain/pack leader needs quicker decsion making as to what to do at lineout time, and some direction/help towards lineout defense maybe (uncontested at U14 here).

didds


cheers

didds

Who was refereeing? How were they qualified? Lack of law knowledge (that I perceived in refs at the age group) was one thing that spurred me on to ref when I was coaching juniors so many years ago.

Two approaches to ensuring all goes as well as you expect:
1. Before the game, talk to the referee and just check that he is aware of all the variations that apply at your level (eg scrum numbers). Also check that he is ok for you to intervene if you feel there is a safety issue. Safety must be paramount in junior games. This then gives you a rationale to speak to him at some point regarding boring in - start with the ' we agreed beforehand I should talk to you about safety...' then lead into your concern.
2. After the game, find the ref and say you have a few queries about the game (or clarifications, whatever terms you use) and then discuss your concerns.

Most refs (me included) are fine with a discussion provided it doesn't become heated or accusatory. So, "why did you do x.../it wasn't clear to me why you gave y.../wasn't sure you saw..." rather than "you were wrong to do x...". In the end, Law 6(a)4(a) trumps everything.

If it's really abysmal refereeing in your view then make sure you have facts and report to the appointing authority. If it's the club it probably won't be worth it (unless it's yours ).

 

[didds]

Think he was a home club appointed ref (we were away) - but he had society kit on. He kept the game flowing well to his huge credit, though that's equally credit to both teams that wanted to run with the ball.

didds

 

[didds]

And some good advice there Nigib - cheers

didds

 

[crossref]

When I was managing a youth team I would always introduce myself to the ref before hand and ask him if he would like me to run through the age group laws and competition specific regulations . Especially if they were society refs.
Most of them would gratefully say yes (I would !) and that makes a lot of difference
1 fewer errors
2 having established a helpful relationship beforehand it's much easier later to bring up any concerns.

- - - Updated - - -

When I was managing a youth team I would always try and introduce myself to the ref before hand and ask him if he would like me to run through the age group laws and competition specific regulations . Especially if they were society refs.
Most of them would gratefully say yes (I would !) and that makes a lot of difference
1 fewer errors
2 having established a helpful relationship beforehand it's much easier later to bring up any concerns.

 

[ChuckieB]

Didds, it's just week 2 of the season and a serious step up for these lads. It will be an issue of both skills and understanding with the coaches setting the overall tone. I would expect a senior coach to adapt his approach to fit the age group. The lads are generally pretty "vacant" when it comes to listening and learning and the process can be slow for the next couple of years! From experience, my son who is now U16's, is channeling all his energy into growing rather than thinking and paying attention.

In the same way, A decent ref should adapt his approach and bring an appropriate mindset to his officiating and an understanding of the variations is always a helpful start. These guys are often equally out of their comfort zone, especially if thrust into the age grade arena from officiating at adult level. As much of the competition aspect has been removed for all the lower age groups, there should be so much more scope for a learning environment with more input from the ref being deemed acceptable.

Good luck!

 

[didds]

i get all of that. TBH the quite esoteric U14 squint throw law is not a problem, whatever.

I would hope an assessor might question him about U19 scrum regs and TH boring if it happened in a appointed and assessed game. And WADR a society ref should know the U19 scrum regs wrt lower numbers. That must be covered in ELRA. Overall he was fine and nothing was dangerous.


The players at U14 are one step up from herding chickens still - that's my (and others') job to help them with totally I'm really looking froward to the season.

didds

 

[Pegleg]

When I was managing a youth team I would always introduce myself to the ref before hand and ask him if he would like me to run through the age group laws and competition specific regulations . Especially if they were society refs.
Most of them would gratefully say yes (I would !) and that makes a lot of difference
1 fewer errors
2 having established a helpful relationship beforehand it's much easier later to bring up any concerns.

As a ref who now rarely does age groups my policy is this in reverse. I ask the coaches of both sides if I can run my understanding of the variations by them. I then get them to agree with my interpretation with any slight corrections. I apologise in advance if I slip into "seniors" mode. Depending on the age of the players I tell them that I'll try to remember the "special" laws but if I forget can you politely let me know at the next Scrum / line-out. Very occasionally I then get a "Sir at the last scrum you allowed X". A quick "thanks, sorry! Or it maybe I didn't see that but thank you" and I find by getting them to feel they are "helping" me, keeps them "on-side".

 

[ChuckieB]

i get all of that. TBH the quite esoteric U14 squint throw law is not a problem, whatever.

I would hope an assessor might question him about U19 scrum regs and TH boring if it happened in a appointed and assessed game. And WADR a society ref should know the U19 scrum regs wrt lower numbers. That must be covered in ELRA. Overall he was fine and nothing was dangerous.


The players at U14 are one step up from herding chickens still - that's my (and others') job to help them with totally I'm really looking froward to the season.

didds

assessments, on officiating at these levels? A rarity to get a society Ref even!

 

[didds]

assessments, on officiating at these levels? A rarity to get a society Ref even!

as I said I suspect he was a club appointment, but he was wearing society kit, so i presume at some time he'll do a game where he is assessed. I can see that may not be any U19 game - but I can;t see he'd permit TH boring at any senior levcel surely? It was very obvious (and also undoubtedly not deliberate - he just lost his arse sideways all the time)

I dind;t mean to imply he would be assessed at an U14 game

didds

 

[chbg]

At a recent U15s tournament, one coach come up to me after all the matches and, after thanks, asked if the not-straight line Variation had changed for this season, as it used to be a throw to the other side, no scrum option. I thanked him for pointing out my error (he was the only one of 8 or 9 throughout the day to do so, and I needed the lesson for future school cup matches) and it was all taken and given in good humour. The normal response "at least I was consistent" is usually accepted!

You shouldn't do anything during the game, unless it is a obvious and realistic safety issue, in which case a 'please could we ...' do it in accordance with the Age Group Regulations (with a copy to hand) is probably the best approach - when it is so serious that you will take your team off the pitch if it does not change, with a 'I'm sorry, I cannot allow them to play'. Of course you have to be right, as this is a fairly nuclear option!

After the match is won or lost, and giving the referee time to recover / gather his thoughts (but at this age group match he is probably not re-appearing after a shower), an introductory 'thanks' (do you have a bag of toffees in your pocket to offer him one?) plus some complimentary comments about the match can lead into your main points. The more important and simpler to broach factual issue would be the un-matched numbers in the scrum. If he is receptive to this, then "can I ask about two other points" so that he knows how limited the conversation will be. The more difficult point will be the TH boring in, which is more based on viewpoint / discussion rather than fact, so I would leave it to last. If he is not receptive to a factual error, then he is not going to engage in a discussion on perspective.

I would never raise a point on e.g. post-tackle / rucks as these are situations that are so dependent on his subjective perspective / experience. That has to be left to a trained referee adviser.

 

[OB..]

assessments, on officiating at these levels? A rarity to get a society Ref even!

I was assessing a referee at a U16 schools match yesterday. Unfortunately as soon as he blew his whistle for the kick-off, there was a giant flash of lightning followed immediately by a crash of thunder, so he took everybody off for safety reasons.

25 minutes later it was still bad so the game was abandoned.

 

[ChuckieB]

I was assessing a referee at a U16 schools match yesterday. Unfortunately as soon as he blew his whistle for the kick-off, there was a giant flash of lightning followed immediately by a crash of thunder, so he took everybody off for safety reasons.

25 minutes later it was still bad so the game was abandoned.

.........and how did you assess the one decision he did make? It was a hugely important one!

 

[SimonSmith]

.........and how did you assess the one decision he did make? It was a hugely important one!

No kidding. I was standing next to an assessor when a referee got knocked out by the restart. "Best bloody thing he's done all game" was the pithy comment.

 

[ChuckieB]

No kidding. I was standing next to an assessor when a referee got knocked out by the restart. "Best bloody thing he's done all game" was the pithy comment.

"Positioning" being a priority area of improvement me thinks?