Scrum turnover

[Blindpugh]

I have not refereed for a couple of seasons so not up to speed on turnover ruling at scrums.

Watched a British & Irish Cup match on weekend and neither hookers struck for ball both packs relied on pushing over when ball put into scrum. The result was several long scrums before ball reached number 8’s feet (which was painful to watch)

At one scrum, ball was held in second row as they tried to push forward. After about a minute the referee signalled to indicate turnover and put in to team not in possession.

I can see the logic in awarding turnover and scrum but would like to know if this decision was correct because players and spectators from both sides were mystified by refs decision? :wtf::chin:

 

[tim White]

20.4.e

(e)
When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

 

[Ian_Cook]

20.4.e

(e)
When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

Right, so I have a technical question about this (and its one I have been asked about and wasn't able to give a definitive answer)

Which stoppage is this Law talking about?

Is it the stoppage caused by the failure of the ball to come out of the scrum or is it the stoppage that caused a scrum to be set in the first place? It does make a difference

Red v Blue, Red to feed but ball does not emerge....

1. Stoppage = reason scrum was set
a. Red win scrum = new scrum Blue feed
b. Blue win scrum = Blue feed

2. Stoppage = ball failing to emerge from scrum
a. Red win scrum = new scrum, Blue feed
b Blue win scrum = New scrum Red feed


Thoughts?

 

[Womble]

My Logic would say 2, same as wheeled 90 degrees, but I do see your point.

 

[Dickie E]

My Logic would say 2, same as wheeled 90 degrees, but I do see your point.

Agree. Law 20.4 ambiguously & inconsistently uses the word "stoppage".

 

[Taff]

After reading a recent thread on "Use it" at scrums, I made use of 20.4(e) for the first time in my game last Saturday. Quite honestly I was very surprised how much smoother the scrums were.

In the past, I have let things develop which usually means the scrum collapses, lifts, spins or disintegrates into a mess. Last Saturday, within a second or two of the scrum becoming stationary I asked them to "Use it" and the difference was noticeable. As it happened, we didn't get to a turnover once as the ball was chucked out a lot faster. I'll definitely be using it more in future.

 

[Ian_Cook]

My Logic would say 2, same as wheeled 90 degrees, but I do see your point.

Yep, that is what I said to the person who asked me.

I guess the varying use of the word stoppage is another one for OB's list

 

[The Fat]

After reading a recent thread on "Use it" at scrums, I made use of 20.4(e) for the first time in my game last Saturday. Quite honestly I was very surprised how much smoother the scrums were.

In the past, I have let things develop which usually means the scrum collapses, lifts, spins or disintegrates into a mess. Last Saturday, within a second or two of the scrum becoming stationary I asked them to "Use it" and the difference was noticeable. As it happened, we didn't get to a turnover once as the ball was chucked out a lot faster. I'll definitely be using it more in future.

"Within a second or two", seems a bit quick off the mark don't you think?

 

[Ian_Cook]

"Within a second or two", seems a bit quick off the mark don't you think?

I don't think so Fat.


If we want to keep consistency with the way available ball is dealt with at rucks and mauls....

[LAWS]16.7 (c) When the ball has been clearly won by a team at a ruck and the ball is available to be played the referee will call “Use it!” after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball at the ruck is awarded the throw-in.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]17.6 (g) If the ball carrier in a maul goes to ground, including being on one or both knees or sitting, the referee orders a scrum unless the ball is immediately available.

When the ball is available to be played the referee will call “Use it!” after which the ball must be played within five seconds. If the ball is not played within five seconds the referee will award a scrum and the team not in possession of the ball is awarded the throw-in.[/LAWS]

IMO, this pretty much means immediately the ball is available, call "use it", then they get their five seconds. I know the technical details might be different e.g. in the maul, the team gets one go at restarting their forward movement, but I think you shouldn't be leaving a static scrum going for too long before giving them another five seconds.

For mine the best sequence would be

1. For ball available scenario
Ball thrown in and hooked
Ball moves through to No. 8 feet
Scrum needs to be already moving forward, or start moving very soon, within 1-2 seconds or call "use it"
If scrum stops, allow 1-2 seconds. then call "use it"
If not cleared in five seconds in either case, new scrum

2. For ball not available scenario
Ball thrown in and hooked
Ball moves stuck in tunnel or moves through to the second row then scrum becomes stationary
Call "use it" quickly
If not cleared in five seconds, new scrum

 

[crossref]

If we want to keep consistency with the way available ball is dealt with at rucks and mauls....

yeah, but if WR wanted keep consistency with the way available ball is dealt with at rucks and mauls, then they could simply include instructions in Law 20, consistent with the instructions in Law 16 and Law 17..


But actually scrums are pretty different, if we are calling use it primarily as Taff describes, to get the ball away from a stationary scrum and drastically reduce collapse, spins and disintegration... then I think a total of seven seconds (2+5) is MUCH too long.

The Law actually requires the ball to come out 'immediately'
[LAWS]When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage[/LAWS]

so when I tell them to use it at a scrum I'd want them to take much less than 5s from when I told them

 

[The Fat]

I don't think so Fat.

Blue feed. Ball is fed into scrum and is (miraculously) under the heads of the two hookers (I know, sack that scrum half). Contest is even and as blue pack squeeze the old arse cheeks together for a shove, the ref has already called use it (he called within a second or two of the ball stopping under the two hookers' heads).
Blue are thinking, "F#$% mate, just about to put the shove on!"
A bit too trigger happy for me.
Ball is directly under the hookers' heads. Who is the team in possession so who gets the feed in the reset?

 

[didds]

why would the ref call "use it" when its not at a #8's feet?

That would seem to suggest - frankly - a ref who hasn't understood what is going on? How can anyone "use" it there without maybe breaking another law? Or one that is very very confused about law 20.

didds

 

[Dave Sherwin]

I mentioned in the prior thread on "use it" at scrums that I fairly often mention this is in a very informal way in the PMB to the scrum half and I clarify that, with respect to scrums, "use it" means get it out of there PDQ. Typically: "At scrum time, if we're not going anywhere or its about to go 90 I'll tell you to use it. In that case, let's just get it out straight away coz I otherwise I have to give it to them - no hanging around. All ok?" If I haven't used it in PMB and it ever becomes an issue, I'll use this script during an injury break etc. with the scrum half to try and manage the issue out of the game. (To clarify, this is not in response to the immediately preceding post, but to the thread in general!)

 

[Taff]

... scrums are pretty different, if we are calling use it primarily as Taff describes, to get the ball away from a stationary scrum and drastically reduce collapse, spins and disintegration... then I think a total of seven seconds (2+5) is MUCH too long.

Just to be clear, I didn't ask them to "use it" until the ball was at the back and it was going nowhere; and we never got anywhere near 5 seconds. I reckon once they were asked to use it, the ball was gone (either picked up by the No 8 or passed by the SH) within a second or 2. I don't say this often, but I was gobsmacked what a difference it made to the game.

 

[Dave Sherwin]

Glad you found it worked for you Taff. Hugely useful management tool. Evidence of this site doing exactly what it is meant to, which is brilliant!

 

[crossref]

Just to be clear, I didn't ask them to "use it" until the ball was at the back and it was going nowhere; and we never got anywhere near 5 seconds. I reckon once they were asked to use it, the ball was gone (either picked up by the No 8 or passed by the SH) within a second or 2. I don't say this often, but I was gobsmacked what a difference it made to the game.

Taff, I was agreeing with you, and disagreeing with Ian's post that 'use it' would give them 5 seconds. I'd want thme to use it much more quickly.

 

[Blindpugh]

Blue feed. Ball is fed into scrum and is (miraculously) under the heads of the two hookers (I know, sack that scrum half). Contest is even and as blue pack squeeze the old arse cheeks together for a shove, the ref has already called use it (he called within a second or two of the ball stopping under the two hookers' heads).
Blue are thinking, "F#$% mate, just about to put the shove on!"
A bit too trigger happy for me.
Ball is directly under the hookers' heads. Who is the team in possession so who gets the feed in the reset?

Thanks everybody. I have just checked with scrum half (my son) and asked where the ball was and did the referee communicate "use it"? He said ball was under his hookers feet (and not second row as I thought from stand) and no there was no communication (management) just signal which you see at maul?

So The Fat's hypothetical question was real. Was referee's decision correct?

 

[menace]

I have not refereed for a couple of seasons so not up to speed on turnover ruling at scrums.

Watched a British & Irish Cup match on weekend and neither hookers struck for ball both packs relied on pushing over when ball put into scrum. The result was several long scrums before ball reached number 8’s feet (which was painful to watch)

At one scrum, ball was held in second row as they tried to push forward. After about a minute the referee signalled to indicate turnover and put in to team not in possession.

I can see the logic in awarding turnover and scrum but would like to know if this decision was correct because players and spectators from both sides were mystified by refs decision? :wtf::chin:

A minute stationary is a long time...so because of that I would go with this...

20.4.e

(e)
When a scrum remains stationary and the ball does not emerge immediately a further scrum is ordered at the place of the stoppage. The ball is thrown in by the team not in possession at the time of the stoppage.

So from your OP with the correction that the ball was under the hooker of your son's side rather than 2nd row ie

Thanks everybody. I have just checked with scrum half (my son) and asked where the ball was and did the referee communicate "use it"? He said ball was under his hookers feet (and not second row as I thought from stand) and no there was no communication (management) just signal which you see at maul?

So The Fat's hypothetical question was real. Was referee's decision correct?

The ref can't and shouldn't call 'use it' ....so yes IMO the ref got it correct.

Unlike what elite do I don't think it is wise at the community level to let 2 packs continue to push and shove for a minute in a stale-mate position and go know where....only one thing is really likely to happen when it goes that long...a collapse! I don't see any issue to stop it and reset it for the other team to have a go at using it.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I'm

A minute stationary is a long time...so because of that I would go with this...



So from your OP with the correction that the ball was under the hooker of your son's side rather than 2nd row ie


The ref can't and shouldn't call 'use it' ....so yes IMO the ref got it correct.

Unlike what elite do I don't think it is wise at the community level to let 2 packs continue to push and shove for a minute in a stale-mate position and go know where....only one thing is really likely to happen when it goes that long...a collapse! I don't see any issue to stop it and reset it for the other team to have a go at using it.

BlindPugh's son plays at Elite level so this would have been a top National Panel referee and two packs of professional players.

 

[menace]

Well there you go...fair enough.

Even though at the elite level they let stationary scrum continue the battle until something happens I still can't understand why they do this in spite of the law clearly indicating they shouldn't. Everytime I've seen a stationary scrum just play out 90% of them collapse and a
PK is pulled out. I guess 'immediately' has new meaning at elite levels? :shrug:

I still think in blindpugh OP the ref got it right. Elite or not.