Stage of the match should be immaterial

crossref


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But what I cannot get my head around is the inability, or possibly the desire of people on a referees forum, not to assess the facts or answer the straightforward question.

Did the referee call it as a dummy? - Simple yes or no, not your or mine or my great aunt bessie's opinion, did he or didn't he?

If no then I am imagining things as the video record clearly shows it and St Nigel also comments upon it!

So no bad loser, no perceived English arrogance just a desire for someone else to recognise or consider the significant failure of an international referee to not only know the laws but also to apply them.

Is that too much to ask?
he just mispoke.
tiny movement, rightly or wrongly ref didn't think it amounted to a dummy (fair enough, he has to make the calls), but at the same time ref has to feel sympathy with the opponent who did perhaps think it was out and comes through offside. Ball was got away anyway, so ref decides no reason to penalise anyone, jouez (as we say so many time, don't blow unless you have to).

IMO all fine

The only thing that went wrong is that he mispoke ... he said 'he dummied' he might have said 'he adjusted his feet in a motion that I really don't think was a dummy, but on the other hand I can also sympathise that you thought the ball was coming out .. so let's just play on"

but, you know, keep it simple
 

Marc Wakeham


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Where is the answer about the ref's failure to act in accordance with the law?

? still in the room
The referee and several people here disagree that the did so. What I can't see is a lot of support for your stance. So yes the Elephant is still in the room. But it is your room in which he resides.
 

SimonSmith


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People have answered your questions. The problem is you can't accept others have a differing opinion to your alglo-centric one.
This.
All the discussiomn about the scrum issues being Scotland's fault, or applying laws that don;t exist, and not one mention of the fact the England seem incapable of packing down without the TH's arse pointing at the corner flag does tend to make me think that there's a particular tinge to the lenses.

BOK made it clear to both teams the standard that he was applying. I thought he was consistent throughout the match, and that he didn;t suddenly apply a new standard at the end of the game.
 

Phil E


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Where is the answer about the ref's failure to act in accordance with the law?

Referees can make mistakes, it's part of the game (not saying he did make a mistake though).
 

Stu10

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I think it is fair to discuss whether BOK was consistent in his application of the scrum laws at the end of the game, and even Nigel Owens in commentary said the ref was less likely to give a penalty at this stage of the game to avoid his decision being pivotal on the outcome of the game (though I consider this ridiculous... not giving an appropriate penalty is just as bad as giving an incorrect penalty in a game this tight).

If Owens is correct in his comments that refs will act differently in the closing minutes, then IMHO this needs to be clarified and some consistency is required because it will influence tactical decisions in the final minutes of a game... reminds me of tactical decisions made by Mercedes based on rules and expected actions of the race director at the Abu Dhabi grand prix (I hope I don't derail this discussion with this last comparison! ? ).
 

belladonna

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Where is the answer about the ref's failure to act in accordance with the law?

? still in the room
1:50:11 into this video
Full quote from BoK: "No, he dummied, play on.... BALL WAS OUT"
If the ball is already out of the ruck there can be no dummy penalty, surely?
 

BikingBud


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The referee and several people here disagree that the did so. What I can't see is a lot of support for your stance. So yes the Elephant is still in the room. But it is your room in which he resides.
Seems St Nigel of Owen is in here with me? and a few more who have reviewed the video feel that he said " he dummied".
 

SimonSmith


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I think it is fair to discuss whether BOK was consistent in his application of the scrum laws at the end of the game, and even Nigel Owens in commentary said the ref was less likely to give a penalty at this stage of the game to avoid his decision being pivotal on the outcome of the game (though I consider this ridiculous... not giving an appropriate penalty is just as bad as giving an incorrect penalty in a game this tight).

If Owens is correct in his comments that refs will act differently in the closing minutes, then IMHO this needs to be clarified and some consistency is required because it will influence tactical decisions in the final minutes of a game... reminds me of tactical decisions made by Mercedes based on rules and expected actions of the race director at the Abu Dhabi grand prix (I hope I don't derail this discussion with this last comparison! ? ).
Of course referees make different decisions throughout the match depending on a number of variables. Statement penalties early on may not get called later on.
Standard of proof for scrum penalties may shift in the game.
Tolerance for infractions will vary according to the mood of the game.

Please tell me this isn't news to you.
 

didds

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Of course referees make different decisions throughout the match depending on a number of variables. Statement penalties early on may not get called later on.
FTR it isnt news to me. I "get" this happens.

That doesn't mean I am happy about it - as a 3 pointer in the 1st minute is still crucial in a 2 point victory after 80 minutes.

but it is what it is.

didds
 

Marc Wakeham


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Seems St Nigel of Owen is in here with me? and a few more who have reviewed the video feel that he said " he dummied".
Opinion. That's all. Funny how English men as using Nige as a reference all of a sudden. The same "St Nige" who said heading a ball is a knock on just a few weeks ago.
 

belladonna

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Seems St Nigel of Owen is in here with me? and a few more who have reviewed the video feel that he said " he dummied".
Yes darling. But what he said, in full, was:
"No, he dummied, play on.... BALL WAS OUT."
If the ball is out of the ruck the 9 can dummy all he wants; the law says you must not do anything to make the opposition believe the ball is out WHEN IT'S NOT. But it was, so he can.
 
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