Struggling with engagement

[upnunder]

Hi All,

In my last few games, I am having difficulty stopping the FR from engaging early.

I have tried slowing the sequence right down, but all that happened was the players just went early anyway.
I have given FK for early engagements, and escalated to penalties, but it didnt seem to work.

Just wondering how some of the other referees on here manage the engagement to ensure fair contest.

I didnt think it was a huge problem, as both teams are only going fractionally early, and both going at the same time, so nobody is gaining an advantage. I have had 4 assessments on the trot now, and all of them have mentioned the engagements need tidying up to stop them going early.

Thanks

James

 

[OB..]

Have none of the assessors suggested what is going wrong? 4 on the trot must surely mean it is you, not the players, and it is obviously something you are unaware of. That means any description might well leave out the crucial factor. It might be a gesture or a movement. Hard to tell without seeing it.

 

[Donal1988]

You mentioned Freekicks and Penalties - have you tried explaining issue to the players?

 

[upnunder]

They have all mentioned slowing down the engagement, and escalating to FK or PK if that doesnt work, which I have done, and am still having problems with it.

I think next week if it is a problem, standing the FR up and explaining what I want to see before escalating to FK may give a better result, as per Donal's suggestion.
I may have been a bit hasty in issuing sanctions up to now, although that was the suggestion of one of the assessors.

 

[crossref]

i think
- the very first time it happens you warn them (this will be at the very first engage of the match )
- the very second time it happens you FK them. (this will be at the second engage of the match )

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I think if one team is doing it then it's easy but upandunder's issue seems to lie with both teams going early (and neither gaining an advantage) and the assessor picks up on it.

Unplug your mike!!!:biggrin:

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I hear Mike Tindall is struggling with his engagement.............................................and his marriage!!:biggrin:

 

[OB..]

If both teams go early, don't say Engage. Just blow the whistle and tell them to wait. Then reset.

If they time it perfectly so that you are saying Engage just as you realise they have already done so,then if it is a solid scrum, let it go, but at the next scrum "Gentlemen, you both went early last time. Wait for my Engage." Then choose between reset, FK, PK, or YC until they get the message.

 

[Simon Thomas]

If warnings, then FK and even cards aren't fixing it and it is both teams engaging early it indicates to me you have a command & control issue.

Are you being assertive enough, is it a clipped sergant-major CTPE or softer and flowing voice ?
Are you being loud enough ?
Are you leaving too long a gap for the pause-engage ?
Slowing down even more at L8 and below is not a solution - with a full set-up physically (tower of power) players at this level are not fit or strong enough to hold the crouch for too long, especially 2nd row who should be holding FR back and balanced.

Really would need to see a video with sound to get to the bottom of it.

Talk to your reffing colleagues, not assessors to get more help.

 

[Taff]

..... I am having difficulty stopping the FR from engaging early. I have tried slowing the sequence right down, but all that happened was the players just went early anyway.

They have all mentioned slowing down the engagement, and .... am still having problems with it.

At the risk of leaving myself wide open for criticism, could you be slowing it down too much? Holding a crouched position for what feels like ages can be painful.

A very highly respected ref told us at a meeting that he had cut down on the time for his "CTPE" and his scrums had tidied up no end.

 

[OB..]

At the risk of leaving myself wide open for criticism, could you be slowing it down too much? Holding a crouched position for what feels like ages can be painful.

A very highly respected ref told us at a meeting that he had cut down on the time for his "CTPE" and his scrums had tidied up no end.

At the other extreme I saw a referee whose CTPE was so fast the scrum had trouble getting there in time.

All sorts of speeds can work. It is when the one you have chosen does not work that you have to vary it to get compliance.

 

[Davet]

Advice at higher levels seems to be to slow down the sequence, and refs at L7/6 and above have reported good results.

However at that level the packs are fitter and stronger, and as Simon says at lower levels they will find it hard to hold the pause. The purpose of the sequence is to help you ensure all is set up correctly. So "Crouch", allows you check heights and head positions, it can take a moment or two to get the packs both crouched and positioned right, the "Touch" is for you to check distance, and you should be able to see that very quickly, as soon as you are happy with distance then why not say "Pause", that's the space for you to do a final check, shoulder no lower than hips, spines in line, feet ready to push; it can again take a moment or two, but to keep them waiting artificially long can be counter productive in my view.

Some refs used to put a hand out, and withdraw it on the "Engage", but I would discourage this as it interferes with props eye contact. But are you doing something like that which they see as a visual signal before the word is out?

 

[Donal1988]

I would suggest that too much emphasis is placed on the speed. It is about management.

I got positive response in my last assesement for "killiing two birds with one stone". On the engagement the Red #1 shoved a little before the ball was in. Not in a major way but enought to turn the scrum slightly. Red #9 put in straight in respect to where he was standing. But because scrum had turned it meant it was straight into second row.

Gave a freekick for crooked feed and when he questioned it instead of marching the gobby little bugger back 10m I pointed out that he should talk to his loosehead about pushing before ball was in. Scrumhalf had a word in the ear of loosie at next scrum. Engagement was perfect after.

Sometimes a FK/Penalty isn't enough and players don't understand what you want from them.

 

[SimonSmith]

Happened to me twice on Saturday.

"Fellas, you all went early. The pause is to let me check binding and positions - it's a safety thing and not me messing you around. Understand?"
Head nods
"Good. Go early again and you're running the risk of a penalty"

So, when they went early 5 minutes later.....

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Happened to me twice on Saturday.

"Fellas, you all went early. The pause is to let me check binding and positions - it's a safety thing and not me messing you around. Understand?"
Head nods
"Good. Go early again and you're running the risk of a penalty"

So, when they went early 5 minutes later.....

Against which team?

 

[didds]

" Go early again and you're running the risk of a penalty"

So, when they went early 5 minutes later.....

Free Kick surely?

didds

 

[Simon Thomas]

Free Kick surely?

didds

Didds - well it is in 20.1 (g) but SS may have made a local ruling :usa:

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

At level 7 and below where I operate I tell them If everything looks good and they don't p*ss about it will be a consistent CTPE sequence everytime.
As most have said at these levels nobody wants a long pause and it just comes across that you are trying to draw somebody into a penalty to let them know your the boss and unless it's obvious your ex front row it will only wind em up..
Crouch 1-2 Touch 1-2 Pause 1-2 Engage where the one two is silent in your head.
Works for me.

 

[Dixie]

Upnunder, you don't mention whether, or how, you address this in the FR briefing. I think it's a common issue at the lower levels, because a lot of refs allow the packs to dictate the pace without imposing their own cadence. My briefing requires that they don't come down until the E of Engage, and requires them to assent to their understanding of what I've said. If I sense that the packs are taking it at their own pace rather than mine, I'll delay the Engage, and they usually go anyway. At that point, I get them up, remind them of the brief and of their assent, and inform them that they've now run out of informal management approaches and sanctions will follow. This usually sorts it - though there are times when a FK is needed to remind them to toe the line.

 

[upnunder]

In my briefing I give them the cadence I am planning to use, but tell them not to pre-empt me and go early.

i think the problem is that both sides get used to my cadence, and start to go on just before the first E of engage.

I think one of the issues I have is that neither side is going earlier than the other, so nobody is gaining an advantage, they are both going early.