Touch Question

pwhaling


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Last weekend I overruled a touch judge (not an AR) which led to the winning try being scored. The player was tackled near touch (around 5 metres out) and released the ball as he was being dragged into touch. The touch judge raised the flag, but he was unsighted to the ball, and I immediately yelled play on amongst the yells of 'the flag was up'. I have come by some video which I believe supports my claim that the ball wasn't taken out.

My question is, should I run with the TJ regardless of what I think?
 

KieranW


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The referee's decision is final - so you don't have to agree with a TJ (especially if they're not a qualified AR). From my understanding, if you had reason to believe that they were wrong (not necessarily their own fault - from your description they didn't have eyes on the ball) then you did the right thing. The fact that it lead to the winning try just means that the losing team were probably trying to milk it.
 

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Don't overrule unless you are absolutely sure. If you are absolutely sure, of course you should overrule. Nigel Owens did it in a televised game a few seasons ago. Get the right outcome, don't be too worried about feelings.
 

crossref


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it's a hard thing to overrule in that direction though.
I tend to think that if the TJ puts up his flag it's a very hard ask for the players to play on just in case the ref doesn't agree - you have to go with it.
 

The Fat


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You saw separation before the player was dragged into touch which you now say has been backed up with video evidence. You got the correct decision and your call to players to "PLAY ON" would indicate that you were focusing on the unfolding situation. IMO, well done.
 

Dickie E


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I can't think of a time that I have ever over-ruled a TJ/AR (except for a kick at goal). That would be because I position myself well infield to allow the "team of 3" to do their own job.

I only get cranky if a TJ puts flag up then takes it down again. "Make a decision and stick with it".
 

pwhaling


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Thanks for the feedback. I couldn't ever remember overruling a TJ before (other than "forgetting " to put their flag up when their player was in touch) and was wondering what others thought
 

Drift


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I can't think of a time that I have ever over-ruled a TJ/AR (except for a kick at goal). That would be because I position myself well infield to allow the "team of 3" to do their own job.

I only get cranky if a TJ puts flag up then takes it down again. "Make a decision and stick with it".

If it goes up it stays up!!!
 

andyscott


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If a flag goes up, touch, always.

Just looks bad. And deflection of pressure is easy with, sorry lads flag up.
 

ddjamo


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that could be the guy's first time on the line ever. to go blindly with some 3rd side player's half ass attempt is wrong. don't be ashamed to overrule him.

TO3 - you have each other's back and yes - no matter what - you go with your AR's flag.
 

Davet

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tend to think that if the TJ puts up his flag it's a very hard ask for the players to play on just in case the ref doesn't agree - you have to go with it.

"Play the whistle!"
 

pwhaling


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that could be the guy's first time on the line ever. to go blindly with some 3rd side player's half ass attempt is wrong. don't be ashamed to overrule him.

This sums it up nicely. Earlier on a conversion, one flag goes up and a second later the second flag goes up. I think to myself, 'didn't look good to me, but I've got two flags'. After the game, one coach (who was under the posts at the time) tells me, that the conversion wasn't good. I told him I've got two flags, I give the points. He told me he asked his guy why he put up his flag and the response was 'because the other guy did'.
It was quite the day.
 

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that could be the guy's first time on the line ever. to go blindly with some 3rd side player's half ass attempt is wrong. don't be ashamed to overrule him.

TO3 - you have each others back and yes - no matter what - you go with your AR's flag.


I think a distinction is required here between the different levels of rugby. Positioning when you have a T03 is very different from the majority case where it is a touch judge form the club. So you will see the incident better in a TJ situation due to you positioning. Clearly in a professional game you will trust your AR to a far greater extent.

However, at any level the right call must be our aim. If a call is wrong ("clear and obvious") you need to overrule. The players should play the whistle. Pro players should be able to understand that basic "rule". In the grassroots game players should understand that a "home" TJ may get a little "involved" and make a wrong call.
 

didds

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it's a hard thing to overrule in that direction though.
I tend to think that if the TJ puts up his flag it's a very hard ask for the players to play on just in case the ref doesn't agree - you have to go with it.

so the home side TJ flags whenever an oppo player is near the line. aside from eventually replacing him do you "go with the TJ" when its blatantly obvious the player was NOT out ?

didds
 

crossref


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In the grassroots game players should understand that a "home" TJ may get a little "involved" and make a wrong call.

well, you are talking about a possible bias, but don't forget that in this situation you may also be the 'home' ref. Personally I wouldn't go there.

it's easy and trouble free to overrule a TJ who keeps his flag down, you blow your whistle.

it's much more problematic to try an overrule a TJ who puts flag up. I know you will all say players must play to whistle, but I have sympathy with players who treat the flag as a whistle, especially when the players are kids and the TJ is one of the coaching team.

also how do you overrule - a cry of 'play on' is problematic, some may hear you some may not. It's quite random and not necessarily fair.

unless the TJ is demonstrably, clearly wrong I'd go with it.
If the TJ really is flagging for a non-event think it might often be better to treat a TJ wrongly flagging as an extraneous incident like a dog on the pitch and stop play and resume with a scrum (and change the TJ!)
 
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Dixie


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If a flag goes up, touch, always.

Just looks bad. And deflection of pressure is easy with, sorry lads flag up.

that could be the guy's first time on the line ever. to go blindly with some 3rd side player's half ass attempt is wrong. don't be ashamed to overrule him.

TO3 - you have each other's back and yes - no matter what - you go with your AR's flag.
Agree with ddjamo. If you disagree with a trained, capable AR on a tight call that is within his area of responsibility, go with his call in the interests of unity and confidence in the To3. But when an unappointed TJ in RFU-land (as opposed to Aus, where there is an expectation that the TJ is both trained and competent) makes a glaring error, IMO you HAVE to overrule if practical.

I once went on exchange to ST's school Old Boys club. The TJ on the pavilion side was excellent - keen, up with play, sprinting to get behind the posts and back at kicks. A joy to work with compared to the usual reluctantly-pressed man. But he got one call very wrong. Big clearance kick, falling only just into touch. A player from the non-kicking side, exercising good skill, kept both feet in play and caught the ball beyond the plane of touch - at which point the TJ put up his flag. I called PLAY ON - and the player then set of on a mazy run as lots of kicking-team players looked askance at me.

If I had not called play on, it would have been a throw-in - but to whom? The ball never touched the ground or anything in touch. The player who last played it before the flag went up was from the non-kicking side, so throw-in to the kicking side? That would not have been popular or sensible. How about throw-in to the side that played it last before the flag went up? That's not particularly bright either. IMO, if players have not been taught to play to the whistle, their coaches bear the brunt of any consequences for not doing so. My call was loud and clear -if they want to stop and throw their hands in the air, that's not my problem.
 

TheBFG


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You say you should always go with your AR, but what if they get it wrong!

saw an incident a while back appointed TO3, Black PK to touch AR in a great position and the ball goes over their head, flag up and ref blows, at which point the ball, still not having touched the ground blows back into play and red full back catches it :chin:

so now what?
 

crossref


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You say you should always go with your AR, but what if they get it wrong!

saw an incident a while back appointed TO3, Black PK to touch AR in a great position and the ball goes over their head, flag up and ref blows, at which point the ball, still not having touched the ground blows back into play and red full back catches it :chin:

so now what?

"sorry lads, I'll get my coat"

restart with a scrum, and send someone ahead after the game to get a jug ready.
 

Dixie


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You say you should always go with your AR, but what if they get it wrong!

saw an incident a while back appointed TO3, Black PK to touch AR in a great position and the ball goes over their head, flag up and ref blows, at which point the ball, still not having touched the ground blows back into play and red full back catches it :chin:

so now what?

As the ref has blown his whistle (premature - ref's mistake, albeit based on the AR's mistake), you must stop and restart with a scrum - which I imagine would be 15m in.

"sorry lads, I'll get my coat"

restart with a scrum, and send someone ahead after the game to get a jug ready.
Bingo!
 

TheBFG


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Scrum to who and where (of and who gets the jug in AR or Ref :wink: )
 
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