U19 scrum numbers (still confused)

[crossref]

I dob't care who controls the options - my role is not to let my personal feelings about what I as an individual think is fair get in the way of the game. My riole is simply to enforce the laws - I don't care if that means the offending team can exercise a degree of control about scrum numbers.

but

They must field suitably trained forwards if they are available.

what Law says that?


the Laws would allow the team with 14 to chop and change each scrum, substituting where necessary to ensure they have or don't have eight forwards on the pitch for each scrum as they chose... but I don't think any of us would allow that (?)

 

[Davet]

what Law says that?

Analogy with 3.12.b.

FR players in adult gane are only ones who must be STE, law says you must treplace 1 STE player with another if one is available.

U19 suggests that all forwards must be STE, and the requirement to replace one STE player with another therefore includes the whole pack.

If you allow the rolling sub for a forward to be one who cannot play in the scrum the that causes an issue regardless whether a team has 15, 14 , 13 or 12 on the field.

So - no if you have a forward available you must use him. Only if you have none can you sub a forward with a back... an if that was a tactical rather than injury change I suspect it should not be allowed even then.

 

[crossref]

but your logic says that if a forward is YC, then (if they still have anyone on the bench capable of being a forward, which they will) they must take off a back and bring that person on the field, and have eight forwards.

so we would never have seven in a scrum.

 

[Davet]

I get the feeling this is going in circles.

If you YC a forward then the law is clear that they can go to 7 in the scrum, if they do so then the opposition must match that (and get and extra in the backline)

I am saying that they cannot simply choose to remove a forward whenever they want and replace with a back.

 

[crossref]

I am saying that they cannot simply choose to remove a forward whenever they want and replace with a back.

how would you stop them though?

the last time I issued a YC - two weeks ago - that's EXACTLY what they did.

I YC a centre - they brought on a new centre, and we went down to 7 in the scrum.

 

[TheBFG]

we've been here before on another subject, but i'm bu&&ered if i can remember what it was over..........

 

[TheBFG]

how would you stop them though?

the last time I issued a YC - two weeks ago - that's EXACTLY what they did.

I YC a centre - they brought on a new centre, and we went down to 7 in the scrum.

Surely the "replacing a player for a YC" only applies for a FR replacement at the next scrum:chin:

 

[crossref]

substituted .
it's rolling subs at youth level - they can bring people on/off at will.

 

[Davet]

how would you stop them though?

the last time I issued a YC - two weeks ago - that's EXACTLY what they did.

I YC a centre - they brought on a new centre, and we went down to 7 in the scrum.

Just tell them they can't!

The law used to say that they could do this - is talked about a team at U19 being a man short - that was changed it now relates ONLY to the forwards.

Just tell them - andf if they argue, ping them.

 

[crossref]

Just tell them they can't!

The law used to say that they could do this - is talked about a team at U19 being a man short - that was changed it now relates ONLY to the forwards.

Just tell them - andf if they argue, ping them.

well at age group level I'd be having that argument with the coach, not the players, so assuming the players were all standing quietly enjoying the argument, not sure what I could ping them for.

I don't see how i can prevent a team making a sub if they want to. What if a player is injured?

- I could insist that they make subs in such a way that there is always eight people on the pitch capable of being in the scrum
- and then I could insist that eight players pack down

But neither of those are backed up by Law.

 

[Davet]

well at age group level I'd be having that argument with the coach

No - you wouldn't be arguing with anybody. You'd be telling them.

- I could insist that they make subs in such a way that there is always eight people on the pitch capable of being in the scrum
- and then I could insist that eight players pack down

But neither of those are backed up by Law.

If they have a forward available and they want to replace a forward then they use the one that is available....

I thought I covered that in Law - analogy with 3.12.b

If they do have 8 STE forwards then they MUST pack down 8 at the scrum - standard Law 20.1.e the U19 variation is to the exception.

Read the laws as a whole, don't just pick and mix.

 

[crossref]

i think you're making up the Laws to suit your view of how it should be...

 

[Davet]

Do you?

Odd that - I suspect that you don't actually have a good grasp of Law, and that you are far too concerned with what the coaches think the law is rather than bothering to read them yourself, all of them together, and think about how the laws can help you manage a game.

 

[crossref]

well

1 - this thread seemed to me to be asking what the Laws are, rather than about how to manage the game in the absence of Laws

2 - your analogies with 13.2.b are fine so far as they go, but in order to make the analogy work you say all eight forwards have to be STE at U19.. Actually - it's only the front five

In terms of how to manage the game I don't really disagree with what you are trying to do... but you are trying to back up your management plans with specific Laws, and there I think you are going wrong. The Laws don't cover this situation properly.

 

[Deeps]

Playing catch up here.

Up until a couple of seasons ago, if any of the 15 players at U19 left the field for whatever reason, then the reduction was historically taken in the scrum and both teams were obliged to have equal scrum numbers. I believe the history of this was that it was considered the game is about running and passing at this level, not scrummaging per se and that the back line should be preserved where possible.

Since that time and I don't have the reference, a clarification now states that the reduction in scrum numbers at U19 applies only when a scrum player leaves the field. If a centre is YC'd then the scrum remains at 8 all. If two centres and a second row are YC'd/injured/fed up with the bickering/need to go home for their tea then each scrum reduces to 7 each in the 3,4 configuration only.

Does this help? All we need is the reference from anyone who maintains a file.

 

[Davet]

Actually - it's only the front five

Actually the U19 variations - quoted at #14 - says "8 suitably trained players in the scrum"

Which makes the aqnalogy with 3.12.b work

And basic law 20.1.e requires a scrum to have 8 players - there are exveptions, one which applise to the senior game, and 1 that is part of the U19 variations.

The only real change at U19, provided by those exceptions, is

1) that whereas in senior rugby the opponents of the side with 1 missing do NOT have to match numbers, at U19 they must.
2) at senior rugby you MUST have 8 in the scrum, regardless of training and experience, unless you are a man down - at U19 you must NOT have a player in the scrum who is not ST, regardless of whether you a are a man down or not.

The notion of rolling subs is irrelevant.

Just like a sub in the adult game - you could not take off a FR player and replace him with a centre if you had any FR players available.

 

[Phil E]

Does this help? All we need is the reference from anyone who maintains a file.

Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
Ruling6-2009
UnionARU
Law ReferenceLaw application guidelines, 20
Date10 August '09

This Clarification was incorporated into Law in 2009
Request
1. The U19 Law Variation refers to a team having fewer than eight players in its scrum when “…the team cannot field a complete team, or a player sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because of injury.” Does this Law Variation also apply if a player is cautioned and temporarily suspended (yellow card)?

2. The U19 law Variation refers to both teams using reduced numbers of players in the scrum formation if “…a team is incomplete…” because it is without one, two or three players. No distinction is made between forward players and back players. If a No. 15 is sent off early in a match, must both teams play with seven players in the scrum, even though both teams still have eight players suitably trained and capable of playing in the scrum?

3. If a team cannot field a complete team because it is short one or more forward player, but that team is able to provide form the available players suitably trained players to contest scrums, may the game proceed/continue with eight player scrums per team?

Ruling of the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee
The complete team is a reference to having eight players who can play in the scrum. If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and cannot be replaced due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.

If any player in the other than a forward has to leave the field for any reason and cannot be replaced there will be no reduction in the players playing in the scrum.

 

[Davet]

Forget the ruling - it is superseded by the current U19 variations.

 

[Phil E]

Forget the ruling - it is superseded by the current U19 variations.

Thats why the ruling says.

This Clarification was incorporated into Law in 2009

 

[Dixie]

Actually the U19 variations - quoted at #14 - says "8 suitably trained players in the scrum"

The difficulty, of course, is that in RFU land at least, the degree of training required to be suited to play in the back row is precisely zero:

5.5.4 When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front-row positions and the two lock positions must have been suitably trained for those positions.
5.5.5 If a team cannot field such suitably trained players because:
(a) they are not available; or
(b) a player in one of those five positions is injured or has been sent off for Foul Play and no suitably trained replacement is available the referee must order uncontested scrums.

The clear inference is that a player with no training at all is suitably trained to appear in the back row. So any back can be drafted into the back row to make up numbers as required.

But this doesn't help. The thing to remember is that however the scrum is set up, the side with more players will have a built-in overlap in the backs. With scrums limited to 1.5m shove, it makes not a lot of difference how the scrum is set up in terms of ball won. It is preferable however for both sides to go with 8 rather than 7 due to the additional control available at the base. The side with more players would rather not crowd the outside by adding a sluggish back-rower to a full complement of backs - they'd rather have a full set of backs against one fewer back (which seems rather harsh when it's a forward who is off, and fthe law variations quite deliberately limit the impact of forward power to facilitate a more open game).

My own view is that the team in question decides whether they've got a full set of forwards in the squad without the excluded player. If so, we go with 8; if not we go with 7. This is not a variable from scrum to scrum; you stick with what you started with, unless there's an injury.