U19 scrum numbers (still confused)

Jenko


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Why create problems?

At prematch briefing ask coaches how many players are suitably trained to play front 5 and manage it from there!

Pre-empt the issue and tell the coaches that if a forward is YCd then numbers will be matched in scrum for duration of YCard. Everyone then knows the situation.

Why do we try to find issue where there is none?
 

crossref


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at U19 the big impact of having seven or eight in the scrum is pick-ups from back of the scrum.

- when there is seven in the scrum it MUST be formed with no #8
- because no deliberate wheel is allowed at all, and no 'accidental' wheel beyond 45 deg, a flanker can never be a clear hindmost player, so can't pick up
- so no #8 means no pickup

I think that whether you fancy making and facing pickups or not is the key factor in determining whether you prefer seven or eight in the scrum
 

Deeps


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I think that whether you fancy making and facing pickups or not is the key factor in determining whether you prefer seven or eight in the scrum

Preference doesn't affect the price of fish however; you don't have the choice.
 

crossref


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I think you do.

If a flanker is YC would you prevent one of the backs from moving to flanker (yes, he's played there before often)

under what Law?
 

Dixie


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Why create problems?

At prematch briefing ask coaches how many players are suitably trained to play front 5 and manage it from there!

Pre-empt the issue and tell the coaches that if a forward is YCd then numbers will be matched in scrum for duration of YCard. Everyone then knows the situation.

Why do we try to find issue where there is none?
Jenko, this doesn't help. You card the Red #8, and at the next Blue scrum Blue want to put all 8 forwards in, arguing that Red have seven non-scrummagers STE to play back row. How many players from each side take part in that scrum?
 

Dixie


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Preference doesn't affect the price of fish however; you don't have the choice.
So after you've binned a back row forward, how many players from each side in the next scrum when the side with the man in the bin:

a) have forwards sitting on the bench and rolling subs are agreed?
b) have no spare forwards, but backs who have played the position before?
c) have no spare forwards and no backs who ahve ever played in the scrum (and are therefore STE to play back row)?
 

crossref


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really the subs are a red herring.. simplify it even more

YC to a back row player
- a centre (let's say STE if that matters) moves to back row to maintain 8 in scrum.. allow/disallow?

YC a winger
- a flanker moves to wing leaving 7 in scrum .. allow/disallow ?

I would allow both.
If they wanted chop/change each scrum.. I would have a problem. I don't think that SHOULD be allowed.. but nothing in the Law to stop them.
 

PaulDG


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I would allow both.
If they wanted chop/change each scrum.. I would have a problem. I don't think that SHOULD be allowed.. but nothing in the Law to stop them.

I'm with crossref here.

The Law Lords introduced a false category with their ruling and clarification - their idea that there are two distinct categories of players "forwards" and "backs" is simply wrong.

As a result, the side with 14 players may get to decide the numbers in the scrum - of course, if they happen to have exactly 7 players who can play as backs and 8 who can play in the scrum then that choice has been made.

But they're not required to declare this in advance and there's nothing to stop them changing their minds mid game.

They get the choice. Not us.
 

crossref


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also i don't see it as sharp practice - at youth levels there are plenty of players with experience of playing both in scrum and out -- their body shapes are changing, their skills are developing, attitudes changing, squads shrinking and growing.

So many teams will have a player on the pitch very comfortable with being in the scrum, or backs.
 

Deeps


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also i don't see it as sharp practice - at youth levels there are plenty of players with experience of playing both in scrum and out -- their body shapes are changing, their skills are developing, attitudes changing, squads shrinking and growing.

So many teams will have a player on the pitch very comfortable with being in the scrum, or backs.

Well done Crossref, you and others have given me cause to rethink my previous stance though I am not sure that this was the intention of the law revision, more an interesting consequence. It certainly creates a management challenge; does a reduced team at U19 have the option to add STE players to a scrum, either from multi skilled players loafing in the backs or by substitution, in order to make up numbers or to vary this player placement between the scrum and the backs as seen fit from a tactical perspective?

Of course previously a team has been required to drop a player from the scrum to fill a gap in the backs and for the duration; there has never been an option. The option in law appears to be there now although how flexible this should be with the need to balance scrum numbers and shape and the inconvenience to the non offending side is questionable. Good stuff guys.

I feel a Society clarification imminent.
 

PaulDG


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Well done Crossref, you and others have given me cause to rethink my previous stance though I am not sure that this was the intention of the law revision, more an interesting consequence.

I'm bloomin sure it wasn't the intention. It was a result of a shoot-from-the-hip ruling that didn't consider what was being asked carefully enough.
 

Deeps


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I'm bloomin sure it wasn't the intention. It was a result of a shoot-from-the-hip ruling that didn't consider what was being asked carefully enough.

Chewing this one over a little and possibly stating the obvious, whereas nothing in Law requires a team to necessarily declare all of its STE scrum players prior to a game, once a team has moved a back or a rolled substitute to complete a scrum formation, that effectively states to all that the team has 8 STE scrum players available. Accordingly, that team now complies and cannot redeploy that player tactically to the backs if a scrum is ordered any more than it can in normal course with a full 15.
 

PaulDG


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Chewing this one over a little and possibly stating the obvious, whereas nothing in Law requires a team to necessarily declare all of its STE scrum players prior to a game, once a team has moved a back or a rolled substitute to complete a scrum formation, that effectively states to all that the team has 8 STE scrum players available. Accordingly, that team now complies and cannot redeploy that player tactically to the backs if a scrum is ordered any more than it can in normal course with a full 15.

Wellll..

What if they ask if it's OK for a back to "try" being in the scrum?

And if at the next scrum, that back refuses to do it again as he says he's concerned about his safety?

Or if they roll him - or any of the other forwards - off and bring on another back?

As I see it, we can either implicitly allow them to have the option or they can create a situation claiming either "safety" or through tactical substitution that means they can't/wont have 8 in their scrum. Or they can choose to put 8 in if that's to their advantage.

And there's nothing in Law we can do about it. (Even if we want to. Personally, at normal club/county level for juniors, there isn't anything I want to do about it. If I was refereeing an International U19 match I might well want to be confident of the actual intent of the Law in advance of the match and I expect I'd have channels available to get the proper advice, but I don't think that's ever likely to be an issue for me.)
 

JohnP

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OK so im still confused!!
Part way through this I thought id sorted it in the scenario from our game in that the scrum should have gone 7 vs 7 for the 10 mins.

I have as a coach been faced with the scenario of 16 players available only and losing 2 backs to injury. So chose to move one flanker out to centre, what happens at scrum time then?
 

crossref


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Well done Crossref, you and others have given me cause to rethink my previous stance though I am not sure that this was the intention of the law revision, more an interesting consequence. It certainly creates a management challenge; does a reduced team at U19 have the option to add STE players to a scrum, either from multi skilled players loafing in the backs or by substitution, in order to make up numbers or to vary this player placement between the scrum and the backs as seen fit from a tactical perspective?

Of course previously a team has been required to drop a player from the scrum to fill a gap in the backs and for the duration; there has never been an option. The option in law appears to be there now although how flexible this should be with the need to balance scrum numbers and shape and the inconvenience to the non offending side is questionable. Good stuff guys.

I feel a Society clarification imminent.


Your players don't really need to be very multi-skilled
- if a back is YC any forward can safely drop back reducing the scrum to seven
- if a forward is YC I'd argue that almost any back can safely move forward and play flanker. Safely. They may/may not be good at it. If I don't have any back on the field who fancies moving forward/back, a quick rolling sub will provide one.

The Law should simply specify what the formation is when there is 14, 13 12 players on the pitch - ie how many in the scrum in each scenario

I feel a Society clarification imminent

It needs to be a RFU clarification to CRefCs and club refs who are facing this every Sunday...

Well done Crossref,
:biggrin:
 

OB..


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The Law should simply specify what the formation is when there is 14, 13 12 players on the pitch - ie how many in the scrum in each scenario
It used to say just that, but was changed because people did not like having to reduce the scrum when a back was sent off.
 

TheBFG


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i maybe barking up the wrong tree here, but doesn't the law state that you have to have 8 in the scrum , unless injury, YC etc????

So if a centre gets binned, you can't drop a flanker to cover his position, you must have 8 in the scrum:chin:
 

crossref


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It used to say just that, but was changed because people did not like having to reduce the scrum when a back was sent off.

in ordinary adult rugby that's what you always do, isn't it?
 

crossref


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i maybe barking up the wrong tree here, but doesn't the law state that you have to have 8 in the scrum , unless injury, YC etc????

So if a centre gets binned, you can't drop a flanker to cover his position, you must have 8 in the scrum:chin:

no, it doesn't say that... hence the thread!
it just says that the numbers in the scrum must be even (and determines the formation they must pack in)

It doesn't specify how the number in the scrum is determined, in practice leaving it up to the team with 14 to choose and the other team to match.
 

Dixie


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I have as a coach been faced with the scenario of 16 players available only and losing 2 backs to injury. So chose to move one flanker out to centre, what happens at scrum time then?

- if a back is YC any forward can safely drop back reducing the scrum to seven
Perhaps this provides a clue to how to deal with this. Adult law tells us:
20.1(e) Number of players: eight. A scrum must have eight players from each team. ...
Exception: When a team is reduced to fewer than fifteen for any reason, then the number of players of each team in the scrum may be similarly reduced. Where a permitted reduction is made by one team, there is no requirement for the other team to make a similar reduction. However, a team must not have fewer than five players in the scrum.
The U.19 variations are just that: situations in which the adult law is disapplied and a revised set of provisions takes over. Do the U.19 variations vary 20.1(e)?

Answer: Technically No. The first variation of Law 20 is 20.1(f). Admittedly, it is rather hard to see why the adult law
20.1(f) Front rows coming together. First, the referee marks with a foot the place where the scrum is to be formed. Before the two front rows come together they must be standing not more than an arm’s length apart. The ball is in the scrum half’s hands, ready to be thrown in. The front rows must crouch so that when they meet, each player’s head and shoulders are no lower than the hips. The front rows must interlock so that no player’s head is next to the head of a team-mate.
Sanction: Free Kick
should be replaced by
20.1 (f)
In an 8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. The locks must pack with their heads on either side of the hooker.
Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.
Even allowing for this exception, each team must always have at least five players in a scrum.
If a team is incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the scrum formation must be as follows:
If a team is without one forward player, then both teams must use a 3-4 formation (i.e. no No.8).
If a team is without two forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2-1 formation (i.e. no flankers).
If a team is without three forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2 formation (i.e. only front rows and locks).
When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.

The adult law says that a team is entitled to reduce its scrum numbers to maintain parity in the backs. Technically, that law is not varied at U.19. Even if (as seems likely) the iRB has incompetently left 20.1(e) unvaried and really intended to replace it with the variation numbered 20.1(f), the bits in red suggest that the adult provision nevertheless applies. It is perfectly permissible to elect to reduce your scrum numbers to maintain a full set of backs - though the requirement of equal numbers means there can never be parity.

All the U.19 variation does is to stipulate when the scrum MUST be reduced below 8, and how - it does not address whether it MAY be reduced. The iRB clarification confirms that the word "team" in the variations means "forwards" - so it is a MUST when the team does not start off with a compete set of forwards. The option of MAY reduce, which exists in all rugby, remains unvaried - so either team MAY reduce the numbers of forwards down to 5, in order to fill holes in the backs.

If they elect to use a back to fill a forward position, that is also their choice, provided that anyone who plays in the front five is STE for the position they are playing. And they can pick and choose which to do.
 
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