Wales v Australia: final try

[jdeagro]

No.

I guess I missed the context when I read that. I thought someone earlier also was pointing out that there's no official statement on how far it has to travel straight.

So to be clear, my original interpretation that the entirety between when the thrower releases it up to the 15-meter mark at the back of the line is where it has to travel straight?

 

[didds]

My take on all the above is that

yes, it has to travel straight for at least 20m.

But the reality is on very windy days if you want a game that isn't just a series of scrums and where kicking the ball out (non PK/50:22) actually eventually wins you the ball, and where kicking PKs to touch is redundant, then some official leeway may be an idea

 

[DocP]

On very windy days I have always been happy for the ball to be thrown into the wind as long as the ball is caught in the middle of the lineout. Requires some skill from the thrower but allowes for a contest to take place where the ball would be caught. If not then I may as well just skip the lineout and give a turnover scrum each time

 

[didds]

If not then I may as well just skip the lineout and give a turnover scrum each time

exactly. My point in #42.

Which means kicking out in open play for territory effectively wins you the ball as well
Unless you are awarded a PK in which case having the PK is a tad meaningless for serious territory gains. You are left with a scrum in your favour, 30m downfield instead, or a tap and go - 30m downfield.

And nobody now wants a 50:22

 

[jdeagro]

My take on all the above is that

yes, it has to travel straight for at least 20m.

But the reality is on very windy days if you want a game that isn't just a series of scrums and where kicking the ball out (non PK/50:22) actually eventually wins you the ball, and where kicking PKs to touch is redundant, then some official leeway may be an idea

Ah gotcha, thanks, cheers!

Interestingly based on the wording of the law stating:

Be thrown in straight along the mark of touch;

And the diagram for the mark of touch shows the line extends past the 15-meter mark at the back of the lineout. Maybe assumptively the line for the mark of touch extends the entire field. If so, even an overthrown lineout where the ball travels past the 15-meter mark at the back of the lineout, sounds like it would have to continue to be straight. Except, I suppose the lineout is over once the ball passes the 15-meter mark (leaves the lineout), so the lineout laws no longer apply.

 

[smeagol]

Ah gotcha, thanks, cheers!

Interestingly based on the wording of the law stating:



And the diagram for the mark of touch shows the line extends past the 15-meter mark at the back of the lineout. Maybe assumptively the line for the mark of touch extends the entire field. If so, even an overthrown lineout where the ball travels past the 15-meter mark at the back of the lineout, sounds like it would have to continue to be straight. Except, I suppose the lineout is over once the ball passes the 15-meter mark (leaves the lineout), so the lineout laws no longer apply.

The mark of touch extends all the way across because it is used to define the offside line for non-participants

18.35

Players not participating in the lineout must remain at least 10 metres from the mark of touch on their own team’s side or behind the goal line if this is nearer. If the ball is thrown in before a player is onside, the player will not be liable to sanction if the player immediately retires to the onside position. The player cannot be put onside by the action of any other player.

 

[tim White]

Worry about where it lands/is caught -that after all is what matters. We call this 'Materiality'

 

[jdeagro]

The mark of touch extends all the way across because it is used to define the offside line for non-participants

18.35

Players not participating in the lineout must remain at least 10 metres from the mark of touch on their own team’s side or behind the goal line if this is nearer. If the ball is thrown in before a player is onside, the player will not be liable to sanction if the player immediately retires to the onside position. The player cannot be put onside by the action of any other player.

Ah good point about it being the reference for setting the offsides line.

 

[SimonSmith]

Worry about where it lands/is caught -that after all is what matters. We call this 'Materiality'

I am a bit uneasy about that.
If the throw drifts, and ultimately bends back to be in the middle at the time it is caught, one of the jumpers is disadvantaged.

What happened to players being forced to adapt to conditions? When it's windy, throw to the front, or hard and flat used to be the mantra.

 

[Rich_NL]

I am a bit uneasy about that.
If the throw drifts, and ultimately bends back to be in the middle at the time it is caught, one of the jumpers is disadvantaged.

What happened to players being forced to adapt to conditions? When it's windy, throw to the front, or hard and flat used to be the mantra.

Why is the jumper disadvantaged if it's in the middle where the contest is?

 

[Dickie E]

Msf..

 

[jdeagro]

Why is the jumper disadvantaged if it's in the middle where the contest is?

Well if one imagines an exaggerated scenario of what SimonSmith said, it's easy to see that a ball that initially heads towards the throwing team and comes back straight to be contested in the middle of the lineout potentially could've been stolen or contested in the front by the non-throwing team's jumper, had it been thrown straight the entirety of the throw. There definitely is a disadvantage to the non-throwing team in such a scenario.

 

[chbg]

Well if one imagines an exaggerated scenario of what SimonSmith said, it's easy to see that a ball that initially heads towards the throwing team and comes back straight to be contested in the middle of the lineout potentially could've been stolen or contested in the front by the non-throwing team's jumper, had it been thrown straight the entirety of the throw. There definitely is a disadvantage to the non-throwing team in such a scenario.

Mostly the ball is thrown so that it can only be reached (timing, height, speed) by a portion of the catchers. If the front jumper had gone up so as to be able to catch a straight throw, but the ball was bent round them by the wind, that for me is material.

 

[didds]

Why is the jumper disadvantaged if it's in the middle where the contest is?

the opposition jumpers are disadvantaged obviously. Particularly those closer to bthe front of the lineout who have no chance of challenging for the ball.

 

[didds]

. If the front jumper had gone up so as to be able to catch a straight throw, but the ball was bent round them by the wind, that for me is material.

This.

 

[Dickie E]

Mostly the ball is thrown so that it can only be reached (timing, height, speed) by a portion of the catchers. If the front jumper had gone up so as to be able to catch a straight throw, but the ball was bent round them by the wind, that for me is material.

so you have 2 scenarios, one disadvantages the front pod, the other disadvantages the middle pod. What is your solution?

 

[didds]

I cant answer for cgbg but Id suspect its time for teams to get creative, as well as use shortened lineouts with options as well as hard flat front ball.
If teams don't have those in their arsenal that is not your issue as a ref.
here in the UK and Ireland at least its very likely that several times a season you will encounter strong winds, so its not untenable after all.

Id have a bit more sympathy for teams from areas that have little wind ever (do they actually exist? )

 

[Volun-selected]

Msf..

Maybe not such a surprising headline…

Eddie set to ditch Wallabies for top job in Japan

After demoralising World Cup fail

wwos.nine.com.au

 

[SimonSmith]

I cant answer for cgbg but Id suspect its time for teams to get creative, as well as use shortened lineouts with options as well as hard flat front ball.
If teams don't have those in their arsenal that is not your issue as a ref.
here in the UK and Ireland at least its very likely that several times a season you will encounter strong winds, so its not untenable after all.

Id have a bit more sympathy for teams from areas that have little wind ever (do they actually exist? )

(my bold)
Agree. If you're going middle, I need it straight to the middle. If you can't do that, find better options. Don't throw it to the middle and then complain when not straight is given.

 

[Dickie E]

I cant answer for cgbg but Id suspect its time for teams to get creative, as well as use shortened lineouts with options as well as hard flat front ball.
If teams don't have those in their arsenal that is not your issue as a ref.
here in the UK and Ireland at least its very likely that several times a season you will encounter strong winds, so its not untenable after all.

Id have a bit more sympathy for teams from areas that have little wind ever (do they actually exist? )

I know you're not a ref, but are you saying that any lineout throw that doesn't start straight or end up straight, should be pinged?