Waybe Barnes Yellow Card Sexton 10

[winchesterref]

Just another view of Sexton's card.

For me he fights against momentum to get himself attacking side, and deserved a YC.

 

[irishref]

If that's yellow then we should outlaw tackling.

Wales had a PK advantage, just go back and give it to them.
It wasn't a game changer since Ireland were atrocious but these decisions are crucial, especially in close games.

 

[DocY]

If that's yellow then we should outlaw tackling.

Wales had a PK advantage, just go back and give it to them.
It wasn't a game changer since Ireland were atrocious but these decisions are crucial, especially in close games.

I'm not sure if there's been a misunderstanding here or not, but there was nothing wrong with the tackle - the card was for killing the ball.

And if you commit an offence that's worthy of a card, a card is awarded whether or not the offence itself is actually penalised. If someone commits a cynical offence, but it doesn't prevent a try, for example, you still award the card.

 

[irishref]

I understand the ball-killing aspect. I just have questions about whether the tackler's subsequent ball-killing action was entirely his own volition or if the action of the opponent had a role to play.

 

[Ian_Cook]

I understand the ball-killing aspect. I just have questions about whether the tackler's subsequent ball-killing action was entirely his own volition or if the action of the opponent had a role to play.

If Sexton had made some kind of effort that showed he was trying to roll/move away, even if he couldn't, he might not have got the YC. Unfortunately, he chose to do nothing, so he made it an easy decision for WB. Doing nothing in that situation (wrong side of the tackle almost on his own goal-line) is not a viable option, and is going to get you in trouble every time.

If it was Aaron Cruden in Sexton's position in New Zealand v Ireland, you would be incensed if he wasn't binned.

 

[irishref]

I'm sorry Ian - it has nothing to do with the player's nationality - I'm not so parochial.

He was trapped by arriving players making it impossible to make any effort to get out.

 

[TheBFG]

Did anyone else notice that at this point WB gave the Welsh Capt options of which PK he'd like? Appreciate he'd not called "advantage over" for a midfield offence, but didn't think the "which PK would you like Capt", comes in until next season?

My 2p worth on the card, easy call, that said as others have mentioned, if you fall that side you need to bounce out of the way, I agree Davies held him in, but it was easy for him to do based on where Sexton fell :shrug:

 

[DocY]

I'm sorry Ian - it has nothing to do with the player's nationality - I'm not so parochial.

He was trapped by arriving players making it impossible to make any effort to get out.

Impossible to get out doesn't mean you don't need to make an effort.

If ever I see a player making no effort to roll away - whether they're trapped or not, or deliberately fell on the wrong side or not - I'm going to treat it as intentional offending. If you are genuinely stuck, make a big song and dance of trying to get unstuck - it'll still be a penalty, but it makes it far harder for the referee to say it's intentional.

 

[Phil E]

Impossible to get out doesn't mean you don't need to make an effort.

If ever I see a player making no effort to roll away - whether they're trapped or not, or deliberately fell on the wrong side or not - I'm going to treat it as intentional offending. If you are genuinely stuck, make a big song and dance of trying to get unstuck - it'll still be a penalty, but it makes it far harder for the referee to say it's intentional.

...and just waving your hands in the air isn't making an effort. In fact all that does is highlight to me that you are in the way.
I always tell players I want to see a "whole body movement" to demonstrate they are trying to move.

 

[DocY]

...and just waving your hands in the air isn't making an effort. In fact all that does is highlight to me that you are in the way.
I always tell players I want to see a "whole body movement" to demonstrate they are trying to move.

Indeed - the situation I was thinking of is where the player in the way looks like he's trying to hump the ground (hopefully the ground, anyway) while shouting "ref, I can't get out".

 

[FlipFlop]

I saw it as a clear YC.

Sexton got on the wrong side (for what ever reason), and then stayed curled up, with knees protecting the ball. He could have straighted his legs, or flattened them against the ground, to make access to ball easier. He could have been seen fighting against the hold (as both teams did when they were being held in). In short he made sure he remained in the most blocking position he could, and gave no indication (however small) of trying to move.

There was quick ball that was denied by Sexton. Close to the try line.

Yellow.

 

[crossref]

for me it was a YC - on the day Barnesy totally sold it to me.

I can see it now as a legitimate talking point (so not quite as nailed-on as I thought at the time) ... but I still think it's a fair YC

 

[L'irlandais]

It was not intend as a moan against WB
I do now accept it is a YC, since Sexton is not using his legs to try to get out of there. So why (my post #35) was Red14 not penalized, he made zero effort to release the ball carrier, his legs do not move either in an attempt to get himself out of the way.
Playing advantage to Green here for Red8 "came late." is neither the first offense, nor the right call ( in my eyes) Red8 is tackle assist.

I do feel WB inconsistency goes against Green a lot.

 

[FlipFlop]

It was not intend as a moan against WB
I do now accept it is a YC, since Sexton is not using his legs to try to get out of there. So why (my post #35) was Red14 not penalized, he made zero effort to release the ball carrier, his legs do not move either in an attempt to get himself out of the way.
Playing advantage to Green here for Red8 "came late." is neither the first offense, nor the right call ( in my eyes) Red8 is tackle assist.

I do feel WB inconsistency goes against Green a lot.

Not seen a replay of this from the far side. So hard to tell why the ball was slow coming out. I expect the AR had a good view. IF you find the opposite angle view - feel free to post. Then we can discuss if it should have been a card or not. Very hard to tell on the main TV feed.

 

[Pegleg]

Looking at the GN incident again. The only difference from the TV angle is that Wales have a pretty full defence lined up. Whereas a try was on the higher end of the Possible / probable curve in the JS incident (not enough for a PT) the GN incident was better defended so a try was much fiurther down the curve. The above may have figured in WB's thinking. Also whilst GN did not roll he does not appear to be preventing the ball coming back. Indeed the AR seems to be indicating "hands in" rather than "not rolling away". The two incidents have significant differences. certainly enough for different outcomes.

All that said; had GN been carded I would not have complained.

 

[DocY]

Looking at the GN incident again. The only difference from the TV angle is that Wales have a pretty full defence lined up. Whereas a try was on the higher end of the Possible / probable curve in the JS incident (not enough for a PT) the GN incident was better defended so a try was much fiurther down the curve. The above may have figured in WB's thinking. Also whilst GN did not roll he does not appear to be preventing the ball coming back. Indeed the AR seems to be indicating "hands in" rather than "not rolling away". The two incidents have significant differences. certainly enough for different outcomes.

All that said; had GN been carded I would not have complained.

TBH, I don't think the full defensive line should affect the card. Whether it should be a PT, yes, but if you're stupid enough to commit such an offence when your team could easily deal with it, you're no less deserving of a card.

I don't recall the GN incident off the top of my head, but the only incident that jumped out at me as a yellow card was Sexton's.

 

[Pegleg]

The Sexton offence was far more blatent. North was to the side of the ball and not the person who was pinged by the look of it. Maybe it is my leval By I'd have been more likely to ping the Green offence than the red partly because the cover. I could well be pulled up for it by an assessor.

You lead me to another point. I've never understood the "red zone" thing. If the offence is cynical does it really matter where it happens?


Back to the two offences: Sexton stopped a possible try scoring chance. The second offence stopped an unlikely try scoring chance. Therein lies a difference.

 

[DocY]

You lead me to another point. I've never understood the "red zone" thing. If the offence is cynical does it really matter where it happens?

I don't think so, but I think the threshold for what's considered cynical lowers the closer you get to the goal line (that's not to say it should, but that seems to be the expectation).

I've seen cynical offences be carded outside the 22 fairly frequently, but I can't recall that happening in the opposition half. Whether that's because the offences themselves are less frequent, the threshold is lower or my memory is failing, I don't know.

 

[SimonSmith]

I do feel WB inconsistency goes against Green a lot.

It's one thing to accuse a referee of getting something wrong. It's quite another to suggest bias. Can you clarify your statement?

 

[winchesterref]

It's one thing to accuse a referee of getting something wrong. It's quite another to suggest bias. Can you clarify your statement?