What goes into a FR PMB?

[FlipFlop]

Although this is a gross generalization, in general FKs are for technical infringments which deserve explanation (unless clearly handled in PMB, of course). At grassroots, I will allow quick PKs, but even then will allow a second before I give the mark for the defenders to retreat 10 metres.

Disagree. 99% of FKs are fully understood. And with clear secondary signals need nothing extra. If you do not let players take FKs quickly, you are removing a major advantage of the FK. And waiting a second or so for PKs, again - taking away advantage from a non-offending team.

No where in the laws does it require the referee to make a mark, except when advancing the PK/FK 10m. The mark is defined in law, as the place of infringement (unless law says otherwise). So as soon as there is an infringement, the position of the mark is known to all. The players may play from that mark (or behind it)

 

[Browner]

I disagree with you all.

.

Whoa Steady on thy mare rushy ....

 

[FlipFlop]

Convention???? without a physical mark ( on the ground- Hense the word) we only have a general 'area' for all kick awarded situations, then what?

Then the game continues quickly, without being stopped by a pedantic jobsworth, who wants to slow it down. General area? Generally good enough - how accurate is your position of the mark anyway? You have video replay, and laser measures, to get it right? No! So let them play.

 

[crossref]

My understanding is
.. If the mark for the PK is the place of infringement (as it normally is) there is no need for the team to wait for a physical scratch on the pitch to take a quick tap.
.. If the mark for the PK is going to be somewhere else (eg 5m into the of play, or advanced 10m) then they do need to wait for the referee to indicate where. .

 

[Browner]

Disagree. 99% of FKs are fully understood. And with clear secondary signals need nothing extra. If you do not let players take FKs quickly, you are removing a major advantage of the FK. And waiting a second or so for PKs, again - taking away advantage from a non-offending team.

No where in the laws does it require the referee to make a mark, except when advancing the PK/FK 10m. The mark is defined in law, as the place of infringement (unless law says otherwise). So as soon as there is an infringement, the position of the mark is known to all. The players may play from that mark (or behind it)

No its not, otherwise players would never ask "where is the Mark ref"

.[LAWSIf a penalty kick is awarded but the offending team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee cautions or orders off the guilty player and advances the mark for the penalty kick 10 metres. This covers both the original offence and the misconduct.][/LAWS]. But flip flop, your logic isnt consistent ....If you are advancing a 'non physical mark on the ground' mark , then why are you expecting the referee to make a mark 10m further upfield? Surely by your own argument youre saying that one isn't necessary????

I bet you €1 you make a 'ground imprint' to set the hookers at each scrum ( when you're not on 3/4/5g ) ?

 

[Browner]

. General area? Generally good enough - how accurate is your position of the mark anyway? You have video replay, and laser measures, to get it right? No.

Fair point, taken on board.

Strange that no assessor has ever dissuaded me from my PMB wordings , or foot indentation in the turf ...... I'm going to desist from now on and see what happens ..... Cheers Phil,ff,cr, etc....

 

[Browner]

My understanding is
.. If the mark for the PK is the place of infringement (as it normally is) there is no need for the team to wait for a physical scratch on the pitch to take a quick tap.
.. If the mark for the PK is going to be somewhere else (eg 5m into the of play, or advanced 10m) then they do need to wait for the referee to indicate where. .

Presumably.... That's fine, off you go, or ....some other indication ....what do you do/say?

 

[OB..]

rhinoceri.

Flanders and Swann? "A regular army of hippopotami ..."

 

[Rushforth]

Flanders and Swann? "A regular army of hippopotami ..."

Inspired by "Mud", yes. I went with the alliteration instead though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AjnOj9O16_I&t=197

 

[ChrisR]

For a FK at a scrum the SH should know that the place for the kick runs through the mark for the scrum (give or take a yard or two) so no need for a mark.

However, after playing advantage for a FK/PK offence it may well be necessary to make a mark.

 

[Rushforth]

Law 20 mentions the term "free kick" 21 times and the term "penalty kick" 26 times.

There are a total of 18 players involved in the scrum, 14 of which (I'll exclude 2nd row because they are all very nice and bigger than me to boot) need watching at various stages of the scrum, in addition of course to the backs who may need to keep 5m behind the back foot of a pack moving backwards.

When I whistle (last Sunday for the first safety reset necessary on muddier ground) it is almost always to ask and then tell. The FK or PK may follow, but if they do, it is necessary for me to make the mark.

 

[menace]

CBS, long bind, start straight, drive straight. Questions?

Works at my levels.

Text book stuff.
Which you'd presume they'd already know pretty well (other than the 'questions?' bit) as they've heard it a thousand times. So to me it beckons the question, if you're not adding anything to what they know then why have a FR PMB at all???
I'd imagine they'd get more info if you came in and said "I'm DrStu. It's Sunday today. See you out on the field in x minutes"

Not being critical of anyone's PMB but with all this talk of make it short and sweet, and I understand the reasoning, it does seem odd to recite text book phrases and expect the players to get something out of it? May as well save our breath, ping them when they get it wrong and verbally remind them then what they should?

 

[Pegleg]

The only reason I can see is that it covers our backsides. The ability to say "what did We agree (I say) before the game" etc.

This is why I go back to the point I tried to get over earlier. #

1; Ask YOUR union what THEY require of YOU. Don't guess or "Ask a coach" ( however qualified as such).

2; Then do what they say. You are then "in the clear".

3; It matters not what you union requires its a box ticking and backside covering exercise.

4; Ignore your union. if you prefer, but don't complain if you are hung out to dry by them later.

 

[FlipFlop]

No its not, otherwise players would never ask "where is the Mark ref"

.[LAWS]If a penalty kick is awarded but the offending team is guilty of further misconduct before the kick is taken, the referee cautions or orders off the guilty player and advances the mark for the penalty kick 10 metres. This covers both the original offence and the misconduct.[/LAWS]. But flip flop, your logic isnt consistent ....If you are advancing a 'non physical mark on the ground' mark , then why are you expecting the referee to make a mark 10m further upfield? Surely by your own argument youre saying that one isn't necessary????

I bet you €1 you make a 'ground imprint' to set the hookers at each scrum ( when you're not on 3/4/5g ) ?

10m further upfield - my definition of 10m. There is no measure on the pitch, so uncertainty in where the mark is. Plus good management to have the option to slow it down.

Make a mark for a scrum? I draw a line on the ground with my boot normally, but if the setup of the scrum is ready before I do it (say injury I am attending etc), then I don't bother. Plus on fields that are not grass, this isn't possible! So if you could donate my €1 to a charity, it would be appreciated.

FK/PK - will rarely make a mark. I'll be "at the mark", and if they ask where, will make a mark, or point. An offence at a ruck/tackle etc doesn't happen in a small area - it happens within the ruck/tackle, so I'm happy if they take it within that sort of area (or behind). If I have to move a PK/FK (for example to the 15m line), or if time has been off (strange this one - don't know why I do it, but generally make it when repeating signal for infringement), or if there is uncertainty about where it might be (late hit on kicks, offsides etc), then I will normally make a mark.

If they go quickly, then I'm not stopping them, calling them back, making a mark, and then letting them go. Provided they are "close" and not infront of the mark, I'll let them go quickly, whether I have made a mark or not. Calling them back to make a mark, where they took it from anyway......

 

[Pegleg]

Common sense and not pedantry.

 

[Phil E]

scrum FK is only time you can go 'without' a mark being made,.....

Sorry, lit the blue touch paper on this squib and then went walkabout.

If they go quickly, then I'm not stopping them, calling them back, making a mark, and then letting them go. Provided they are "close" and not infront of the mark, I'll let them go quickly, whether I have made a mark or not. Calling them back to make a mark, where they took it from anyway......

FF sums it up nicely.
There is only one place in the law book where it states the referee must make a physical Mark. It is therefore logical to assume he is not required to do so in other scenarios because the position of the Mark is defined by law.

I would never call back a quick FK or PK just because I hadn't made a Mark on the ground, that would be pedantic beyond belief, providing they took it near to the original place defined as the Mark. 'Near' is defined in law, as is the place of the Mark, so all bases are covered.

What Browner has stated in his PMB is that if he gives a FK at a line out, and the player runs to the 15m line, in line with the line of touch, takes a quick FK and scores, then he must call it back and deny the try! He has painted himself into a corner, and if this happened I would expect to get crucified by the assessor.

 

[Browner]

Sorry, lit the blue touch paper on this squib and then went walkabout.



FF sums it up nicely.
There is only one place in the law book where it states the referee must make a physical Mark. It is therefore logical to assume he is not required to do so in other scenarios because the position of the Mark is defined by law.

I would never call back a quick FK or PK just because I hadn't made a Mark on the ground, that would be pedantic beyond belief, providing they took it near to the original place defined as the Mark. 'Near' is defined in law, as is the place of the Mark, so all bases are covered.

What Browner has stated in his PMB is that if he gives a FK at a line out, and the player runs to the 15m line, in line with the line of touch, takes a quick FK and scores, then he must call it back and deny the try! He has painted himself into a corner, and if this happened I would expect to get crucified by the assessor.

Yes Phil, you're correct it does seem like I'm saying that doesnt it, its not my intention, in fact my games are often commented upon for being quick ( most BenOfDoubt to the attacking team... ethos) in practice a 9 will head to the 'place' and make a look toward me for a 'permission' to take quickly which is given by a quick "OK" or a nod & off he goes..... . I can see why better players wouldn't wait, and in practice I can't remember the last time I stopped anyone from going quickly ( cant be happening as assessors havnt ever raised), but as I've said I'm now going to drop the PMB speak as I'm convinced by you,FF&CR that its unnecessary.

Which demonstrates my learning and the value of this forum. Cheers guys.

 

[Browner]

Phil, Flop Flop,CR.

How do you handle the " not 10 " when you don't make a mark?

If 9 takes a QFK , and the oppo aren't 10, then as soon as you whistle he could speedily run forward 6m quickly chip the ball to himself ( safe in the knowledge that he must be definitely directly behind ANY 10m location of the second Mark ) the opposition might never be able to react as fast ......if cute 9 repeats this urgency & skill does he get a free run to the try line? ( or extracts a YC +PT from any offside tackler.)

I hope I've painted a clear picture with this question.

[QUOTE There is no measure on the pitch, so uncertainty in where the mark is. Plus good management to have the option to slow it down. ][/QUOTE].

 

[crossref]

Phil, Flop Flop,CR.

How do you handle the " not 10 " when you don't make a mark?

If 9 takes a QFK , and the oppo aren't 10, then as soon as you whistle he could speedily run forward 6m quickly chip the ball to himself ( safe in the knowledge that he must be definitely directly behind ANY 10m location of the second Mark ) the opposition might never be able to react as fast ......if cute 9 repeats this urgency & skill does he get a free run to the try line? ( or extracts a YC +PT from any offside tackler.)

I hope I've painted a clear picture with this question.

[QUOTE There is no measure on the pitch, so uncertainty in where the mark is. Plus good management to have the option to slow it down. ]

.[/QUOTE]

Advancing the mark 10m for a 'not 10' is the one scenario where the Law book says you MUST make a mark (and they need to wait until you do)

In general, as I said before, if the mark is at the place of infringement (which it normally is) the ref doesn't need to physically scratch the pitch.

Otherwise, if the mark is not the place of infringment (or if the place of infringeemnt is not clear) I will walk to whare the mark is, and scratch one into the grass.

 

[Browner]

.

Advancing the mark 10m for a 'not 10' is the one scenario where the Law book says you MUST make a mark (and they need to wait until you do)

In general, as I said before, if the mark is at the place of infringement (which it normally is) the ref doesn't need to physically scratch the pitch.

Otherwise, if the mark is not the place of infringment (or if the place of infringeemnt is not clear) I will walk to whare the mark is, and scratch one into the grass.[/QUOTE]

Point me in its direction please.