What goes into a FR PMB?

[FlipFlop]

Phil, Flop Flop,CR.

How do you handle the " not 10 " when you don't make a mark?

If 9 takes a QFK , and the oppo aren't 10, then as soon as you whistle he could speedily run forward 6m quickly chip the ball to himself ( safe in the knowledge that he must be definitely directly behind ANY 10m location of the second Mark ) the opposition might never be able to react as fast ......if cute 9 repeats this urgency & skill does he get a free run to the try line? ( or extracts a YC +PT from any offside tackler.)

I hope I've painted a clear picture with this question.

There is no measure on the pitch, so uncertainty in where the mark is. Plus good management to have the option to slow it down.

.

Simple: They must wait for the mark in this scenario:

[LAWS]Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick. This mark must not be within 5 metres of the goal line. Any player may take the kick. The kicker may change the type of kick and may choose to kick at goal. If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty.[/LAWS]

 

[crossref]

Point me in its direction please.

flipflop responded #61

 

[Phil E]

Answered for me by the others.

 

[Browner]

Simple: They must wait for the mark in this scenario:

[LAWS]Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick. This mark must not be within 5 metres of the goal line. Any player may take the kick. The kicker may change the type of kick and may choose to kick at goal. If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty.[/LAWS]

thanks.
So, 1st infringement mark isnt requiring referee to indicate where, as per 21.1
Then , 2nd Mark requires a "made the mark" indication as per 21.7

I'm presuming that if a 9 tapped and ran ( say 6m beyond the first mark, but c.4m shy of any likely 2nd) before you made the second mark, then, you'd bring him back and say ...???what ???

Maybe.... " I know I've not made a mark during the match thus far, but second marks need a groove in the ground, whereas first marks dont" ( sarcsmiley )

Don't worry, FF I'm clear, but will players be?......you can see why the myth was created !!!

PS... How about a wording improvement ...original infringements are given at the "location" and second offences the referee "Marks" the pitch........then whilst we are at it a player catching the ball in the 22 gets awarded a "free catch kick" not a mark !!!

 

[FlipFlop]

Never had a problem. As I'm walking forward the 10m, I'll just say "wait for the mark" if I think the player is going to go quickly i.e. I manage the issue away. Never had to call a player back from an advanced FK/PK, so no idea what I would say to them, but probably - "you have to wait for me to make the mark when the FK/PK has been advanced, please wait in future".

Most players think you can't take the 2nd one quickly, some know you can go as soon as the mark is made. So the only issue i get is the players who incorrectly think you have to wait for the defence to get back 10m.

And most players probably aren't even aware I haven't made a mark at most FK/PKs. I don't think they pay that much attention to my exact "actions" like this.

 

[crossref]

And most players probably aren't even aware I haven't made a mark at most FK/PKs. I don't think they pay that much attention to my exact "actions" like this.

the scrum-halves do !

 

[didds]

you just need to indicate their ignorance at the first time they do it.

didds

 

[OB..]

Surely the point of the requirement is to allow the referee to keep control. He decides how much time the defence is given to re-adjust, not the kicker, who may well be hoping to milk yet another PK.

 

[Browner]

Surely the point of the requirement is to allow the referee to keep control. He decides how much time the defence is given to re-adjust, not the kicker, who may well be hoping to milk yet another PK.

I get that OB, but do spectators/viewers/players? ...its not difficult to see why the myth "you can't take a second QTP" exists.

 

[crossref]

if it was really the case that you coudn't take a 2nd one fast there would be an enormous incentive to disrupt the first one. Every time.

 

[OB..]

I get that OB, but do spectators/viewers/players? ...its not difficult to see why the myth "you can't take a second QTP" exists.

All sorts of myths arise for all sorts of reasons. It is our job to dispel them. The laws are not a form of democracy (well, not these days, anyway).

 

[ChrisR]

What is less understood by players and, sad to say, my fellow coaches is that a player who is/has retired the full 10m from the mark can advance on QTP and put onside his retiring teammates.

 

[Browner]

if it was really the case that you coudn't take a 2nd one fast there would be an enormous incentive to disrupt the first one. Every time.

But FlipFlop (and others) is saying that you cant take a second quick one faster than he trundles to make the 2nd ( ahem..his 1st) Mark.

So, which that in mind , under what circumstances is a second QTP allowed/ achieved .... Examples of such game conditions would be nice to hear.

 

[crossref]

But FlipFlop (and others) is saying that you cant take a second quick one faster than he trundles to make the 2nd ( ahem..his 1st) Mark.

So, which that in mind , under what circumstances is a second QTP allowed/ achieved .... Examples of such game conditions would be nice to hear.

it's always allowed ---- just as soon as the ref has made the mark.
as a ref I would usually make the mark in reasonable tempo : I wouldn't sprint to make it, but neither would I dawdle, and I'd be clearly announcing what was happening, with not-10 signal, and verbally.

 

[FlipFlop]

Technically you can't take the second one "quickly". But what players mean when they say it is "you can't take the 2nd one before the defence is set".

Reality is: "you can't take the second one until the mark is made". As the players have to wait for the mark, they can't actually go quickly. So the "myth" is correct, but the "myth" itself is not what players mean.

 

[Blackberry]

On Saturday Team A had a penalty 7 metres out from Team B's line. Team B were "not 10" so I marched the penalty forward...... 2 metres! Made the mark, and its game on, it has to be. So the second penalty can, in such circumstances, come about very swiftly because it is only a few metres in front of the first.
.....and there is NO way the defending team, which has just infringed at the original penalty, should now be given time by the ref to get their defence sorted out, sucking away the attacking team's attacking options.

 

[OB..]

Technically you can't take the second one "quickly". But what players mean when they say it is "you can't take the 2nd one before the defence is set".

Reality is: "you can't take the second one until the mark is made". As the players have to wait for the mark, they can't actually go quickly. So the "myth" is correct, but the "myth" itself is not what players mean.

For players who quote that myth, it is thought to mean that you have to kick to touch ie you can no longer tap to yourself. They are not thinking of different degrees of quickness.

(I'm sure that misunderstanding is how the myth arose.)

 

[irishref]

brief as possible, covering;

hooker - you're in charge, when you crouch it's a signal your front row is ready.
props - no binding on elbows or armpits but here (and then I point to own body where I want them to bind)
CBS - crouch.... bind.... set - this is my cadence, tell me if you want it slower or quicker
everyone - push straight and keep heads above hips and hips & elbows parallel to the touchline
#9 - mark is where you put the ball, wait for either my tap on the back or my thumbs up if I'm on the other side, so I expect you to make eye contact with me

finally, remember everyone, we have work/college tomorrow so safety first and foremost

 

[Phil E]

CBS - crouch.... bind.... set - this is my cadence, tell me if you want it slower or quicker

How is it up to them???
How do they know when everyone is crouched correctly and a safe distance apart, ready to move to the bind?
How do they know when everyone is correctly bound to your satisfaction and you are happy to proceed to the set?

Sorry, but the CBS speed is not up to them, nor is there a cadence. You move on when you are happy each stage is safe.

 

[Browner]

it's always allowed ---- just as soon as the ref has made the mark.
as a ref I would usually make the mark in reasonable tempo : I wouldn't sprint to make it, but neither would I dawdle, and I'd be clearly announcing what was happening, with not-10 signal, and verbally.

For the purpose of discussion, and agreeing that referees should always be looking to 'allow' the Lawful second (3rd?) QTP , what type of speed is the optimum? Normal, steady, deliberate, purposeful, urgent, power, trot, jog ?

I can't imagine any reason for a dawdle,(anyone?)