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What goes into a FR PMB?
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ChrisR
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.... and now we return to our regular programming.
As a U-19 coach in the US. Before the PMB I will give the referee a 'heads up' on the experience of the FR, and possible replacements, so he knows what he's dealing with. Here are something I'd like to hear in the FR PMB.
"Props, after the engage you will be given time to adjust your feet and binds"
As a U-19 coach in the US. Before the PMB I will give the referee a 'heads up' on the experience of the FR, and possible replacements, so he knows what he's dealing with. Here are something I'd like to hear in the FR PMB.
"Props, after the engage you will be given time to adjust your feet and binds"
menace
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You'd like to think that the ref knows they'll be adjusting their feet and binds at/just after "set" to help them get settled, and therefore the scrum is not steady, hence they shouldn't be tapping or allowing the SH feed the ball.
I see your point, but TBH it's not something I think I would need to say to the players?
(I do tell them that I won't move through the cadence unless they're steady at each stage)
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I asked my son last night what he likes to hear in a PMB (he's a SH)
He said he hates it when referees tell everyone they are making up their own laws today.
- what do mean ? surely no referees do that?
- about when it's out : like : 'one hand on is not out, but two hands on is out / It's out when I call it out / It's out when it clears the back foot'
- ah well that's not exactly making up a law, that's because the law isn't perfectly clear so different referees handle it differently
- same thing.
hmmm.
He said he hates it when referees tell everyone they are making up their own laws today.
- what do mean ? surely no referees do that?
- about when it's out : like : 'one hand on is not out, but two hands on is out / It's out when I call it out / It's out when it clears the back foot'
- ah well that's not exactly making up a law, that's because the law isn't perfectly clear so different referees handle it differently
- same thing.
hmmm.
WombleRef
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But the law is clear. The ball is out when either it has slipped out of the ruck backwards (e.g. player stands on it and it flies back) OR when the SH has picked it up.
wombleref - yes, everyone thinks the Law is clear to them -- but nevertheless when asked 'when is it out' refs give many different answers.
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RobLev
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A SH complaining about referees making up their own laws? There's a word for that, isn't there? Something metallic?
[LAWS]16.6 A ruck ends successfully when the ball leaves the ruck, or when the ball is on or over the goal line.[/LAWS]No mention of the scrum half -which is preciesly where the problem arises.
Technically he is hadling the ball in the ruck, but we allow it to some extent in the wider interests of the game.
Since we do that to keep the game flowing, my view is that the scrum half should have a reasonable chance to play the ball once it has left the ruck. That means he should be allowed to lift it clear wih both hands. He should not be allowed to delay, but should remove the ball as soon as he reasonably can once he has started playing it.
At top level it may make sense to say "as soon as he lifts it", but at lower levels I prefer to see the ball actually come out of the ruck first.
I don't have a "union answer" but am happy to go with the shortest realistically possible brief now, after which players are allowed to ask whatever they want.
For some reason - ok, the hit whilst I still played - I felt the PMB needed the detail. Obviously it is impossible to watch engage on both sides, straight feed, back-row perhaps unbinding, backs creeping up (or simply not keeping 5m behind).
The conclusion we (NL) came to is "don't make promises that can't be kept." Don't say you'll be watching the crooked feed if you are watching something else instead.
Perhaps the best tip was "don't single out a front row player", from this coach with FR experience himself. Don't paint a target! It is not something I have been guilty of myself as a referee - since I have played all FR positions - but for those of you who with less knowledge of the dark arts... tell them to sort it out themselves, and if necessary guess. (That said, I've had one collapsed scrum this season, will have more now that pitches will go muddy)
For some reason - ok, the hit whilst I still played - I felt the PMB needed the detail. Obviously it is impossible to watch engage on both sides, straight feed, back-row perhaps unbinding, backs creeping up (or simply not keeping 5m behind).
The conclusion we (NL) came to is "don't make promises that can't be kept." Don't say you'll be watching the crooked feed if you are watching something else instead.
Perhaps the best tip was "don't single out a front row player", from this coach with FR experience himself. Don't paint a target! It is not something I have been guilty of myself as a referee - since I have played all FR positions - but for those of you who with less knowledge of the dark arts... tell them to sort it out themselves, and if necessary guess. (That said, I've had one collapsed scrum this season, will have more now that pitches will go muddy)
Pegleg
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Oh dear!!! NEVER guess. That is a terrible suggestion.
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If you've been making "I" statements in the PMB, you've been way, way off beam. It's about setting expectations of the players - so a lot of "you" statements.
And never guess. That statement devalues the giver of this advice. It's an idiotic thing to say
Drift
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I disagree with that. I will often single someone out and put the pressure on them to ensure that the scrum is stable etc. If we are having good scrums and a replacement occurs and then they go messy then I will put pressure on the new player as they are probably the one messing it up.
Pegleg
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I only single out player IF I am sure they are to blame. Again "DON'T GUESS". The suggestion that you don't single out the guilty party is absurd.
However, I witnessed a senior Welsh ref single out a replacement prop after the first scrum he was part off. He told him " the scrums have been fine. You come on and there is trouble. Watch it!" Problem was the scrums had been a nightmare all through the game and the main culprit was the prop he was against. The poor sod was pinged off the park and the culprit had a field day.
On another point Rushforth raised, indeed do not paint your self in and don't promise without delivery. The players know you can't watch everything so instead of "I'll be watching the crooked feed" when there are other things that may divert your eyes. Why not just tell them what the requirement is and add I can't see everything and what I see I'll deal with." or something similar. There again do you need to tell them you'll be watching? Surely they know and expect that.
However, I witnessed a senior Welsh ref single out a replacement prop after the first scrum he was part off. He told him " the scrums have been fine. You come on and there is trouble. Watch it!" Problem was the scrums had been a nightmare all through the game and the main culprit was the prop he was against. The poor sod was pinged off the park and the culprit had a field day.
On another point Rushforth raised, indeed do not paint your self in and don't promise without delivery. The players know you can't watch everything so instead of "I'll be watching the crooked feed" when there are other things that may divert your eyes. Why not just tell them what the requirement is and add I can't see everything and what I see I'll deal with." or something similar. There again do you need to tell them you'll be watching? Surely they know and expect that.
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My FR PMB lasts about 25-30 seconds and also includes the SH. When you add in my chat with the captain and any general stuff that there may be a focus on, the whole PMB is done & dusted in a bit over 60 seconds and that includes a g'day and good luck.
*Everyone happy with the new engagement sequence? (They won't get that one next season but may modify it and just drop the new bit)
*No early push before the feed please. Ball won't come in until square & steady so you'll just be wasting energy if you start moving around.
*SH, Straight feed as soon as square & steady please. I'll stop you if it's not. (We don't give a signal or verbal command to the SH to feed the scrum in our neck of the woods)
*Everyone familiar with the Mayday call? (often referee 3rd XV games who sometimes have guys with either limited FR experience and/or poor technique)
*Any questions? (This is usually where you'll get the "When is the ball out?" question or they ask for your interpretation of something that happened to them last week. If they make a comment like, "Could you watch their backs for offside at the breakdown please sir? Last time we played them they were offside all day". My answer to that type of request is, "No worries, I'll be watching the backs from both teams".)
*Enjoy the game guys.
*Everyone happy with the new engagement sequence? (They won't get that one next season but may modify it and just drop the new bit)
*No early push before the feed please. Ball won't come in until square & steady so you'll just be wasting energy if you start moving around.
*SH, Straight feed as soon as square & steady please. I'll stop you if it's not. (We don't give a signal or verbal command to the SH to feed the scrum in our neck of the woods)
*Everyone familiar with the Mayday call? (often referee 3rd XV games who sometimes have guys with either limited FR experience and/or poor technique)
*Any questions? (This is usually where you'll get the "When is the ball out?" question or they ask for your interpretation of something that happened to them last week. If they make a comment like, "Could you watch their backs for offside at the breakdown please sir? Last time we played them they were offside all day". My answer to that type of request is, "No worries, I'll be watching the backs from both teams".)
*Enjoy the game guys.
mine is very similar.
I have one additional thing
Lineouts: I'll mark where the defending team line must stand. Team throwing in are then responsible for creating the gap.
the reason I mention this is : in the leagues i ref different referees do this differently : (some mark the centre, some mark the defending team, some don't make a mark, expecting the teams to line up on the TJ. I reckon my way is the best way :wink
but because it varies it helps to be clear how this game is going to work. At first line out, I'll quickly say that again.
Also - this season I have started to volunteer my answer to "when is it out", without waiting to be asked.
This is becasue I like to say the same thing to both teams, but if the first team don't ask, and the second team do ask, then I feel the result is that the teams haven't had the same briefing on something that is quite important. So the last few games I tell both teams.
I have one additional thing
Lineouts: I'll mark where the defending team line must stand. Team throwing in are then responsible for creating the gap.
the reason I mention this is : in the leagues i ref different referees do this differently : (some mark the centre, some mark the defending team, some don't make a mark, expecting the teams to line up on the TJ. I reckon my way is the best way :wink
but because it varies it helps to be clear how this game is going to work. At first line out, I'll quickly say that again.Also - this season I have started to volunteer my answer to "when is it out", without waiting to be asked.
This is becasue I like to say the same thing to both teams, but if the first team don't ask, and the second team do ask, then I feel the result is that the teams haven't had the same briefing on something that is quite important. So the last few games I tell both teams.
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ChrisR
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"don't single out a front row player",
My last rugby match ever, many years ago, playing TH. At the FR PMB the referee is informed that my opponent LH was playing his first match. Without hesitation he looked at my graying beard and said: "I expect you to take care of him and keep him safe." I didn't appreciate it at the time but I do now.
Everyone familiar with the Mayday call?
Good advice for lower sides and youth. Who else does this?
My last rugby match ever, many years ago, playing TH. At the FR PMB the referee is informed that my opponent LH was playing his first match. Without hesitation he looked at my graying beard and said: "I expect you to take care of him and keep him safe." I didn't appreciate it at the time but I do now.
Everyone familiar with the Mayday call?
Good advice for lower sides and youth. Who else does this?