Who gets the scrum after a team runs down the clock after a penalty kick?

Volun-selected


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Sorry guys, I’m overthinking it all again…

The laws are pretty clear that once a team awarded a penalty decides to kick at goal they are tied in.
8.20 If the team indicates to the referee the intention to kick at goal, they must kick at goal.

So what happens if a team changes their mind and decides to run down the clock? The next law has:
8.21 The kick must be taken within 60 seconds (playing time) from the time the team indicated their intention to do so, even if the ball rolls over and has to be placed again. Sanction: Kick is disallowed and a scrum is awarded.

60 seconds rolls past - and we have to award a scrum. The table under 19.1 has:

Infringement / stoppageLocation of scrumWho throws in
A penalty attempt at goal not taken within the time limit.In the scrum zone at the point closest to where the penalty was awarded.The non-offending team.


My question - who is the non-offending team? The current kicking team, the one that was originally awarded the penalty?

Or, since the kicking team have (IMO) deliberately ran down the clock and is now afoul of
20.5 A penalty or free-kick must be taken without delay.
are they now the offending team and the originally offending team now get the put-in?

Because of the deliberate shenanigans I’m thinking the latter, but I could easily see an irate coach and/or player from the kicking team wanting it to be the former.
 

crossref


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Not sure any team would ever deliberately run out of time? Why would they ?

If they accidentally went over time (probably because they had to search for the tee) realistically I would not penalise them for it .
 
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Volun-selected


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Not sure any team would ever deliberately run out of time? Why would they ?
Unlikely, I agree. But this followed by dithering about setting up the scrum - easy way to run down the clock at the end of a close game and kill a couple of minutes.
 

menace


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The current kicking team is the offending team by not kicking within 60sec.

But don't let it happen?
If you've not managed that time, by say, letting the kicker know he has 15/20 seconds left, and then give a scrum over for not taking the kick in time...then you'll look like a real jobsworth. (you tell the kicker he has 20 seconds and he'll get it done)
I'd make sure I did everything so that I didn't have to give a scrum over on a PK - and if it's 10/15 after..then so what? Rugby is not a precise science on all it's laws.

Don't needlessly put yourself in the spotlight.

Don't be like Raynal. ;)
 

didds

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The offending team are the team that offended by not taking the kick appropriately. Therefore their opposition get the put in.
This. Clearly. the "offense" is not kicking in the time allotted.
 

Locke


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This. Clearly. the "offense" is not kicking in the time allotted.
Definitely. The team who ran out the clock do not get the put in.
To menace’s point, this should be easy to manage by letting a kicker know when his time is running low. If you’ve told him when he has 20 seconds and 10 seconds remaining, there can be no complaints if the other team gets a scrum because the kicker has inexplicably still mismanaged the time.
 

SimonSmith


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The current kicking team is the offending team by not kicking within 60sec.

But don't let it happen?
If you've not managed that time, by say, letting the kicker know he has 15/20 seconds left, and then give a scrum over for not taking the kick in time...then you'll look like a real jobsworth. (you tell the kicker he has 20 seconds and he'll get it done)
I'd make sure I did everything so that I didn't have to give a scrum over on a PK - and if it's 10/15 after..then so what? Rugby is not a precise science on all it's laws.

Don't needlessly put yourself in the spotlight.

Don't be like Raynal. ;)
You mean give a player who'd already been nailed once for time wasting a clear warning?

Don't do that!
 

tim White


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In the weeds 90 seconds is an absolute age. If you are on the ball enough to be monitoring the time I would certainly manage the kick by giving a warning at 10-15 seconds and then the onus is on the kicker. "Sorry, but you can't say I didn't warn him/her"
 

crossref


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In the weeds 90 seconds is an absolute age. If you are on the ball enough to be monitoring the time I would certainly manage the kick by giving a warning at 10-15 seconds and then the onus is on the kicker. "Sorry, but you can't say I didn't warn him/her"
unless the guys on the touchline aren't paying attention / can't find the tee --- then it goes in a flash!
 

smeagol


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In the weeds 90 seconds is an absolute age. If you are on the ball enough to be monitoring the time I would certainly manage the kick by giving a warning at 10-15 seconds and then the onus is on the kicker. "Sorry, but you can't say I didn't warn him/her"
Not just in the weeds!

The match I AR'd last week (top-level varsity college, livestream on ESPN) - visitors score a try early in the second half, and it takes the sideline
almost 60 seconds to find the tee. The center ref did warn the kicker upon the tee's arrival about the shot clock.
 

crossref


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e match I AR'd last week (top-level varsity college, livestream on ESPN) - visitors score a try early in the second half, and it takes the sideline
almost 60 seconds to find the tee. The center ref did warn the kicker upon the tee's arrival about the shot clock.
In the weeds i would stop my shot clock while the touchline looked for tee.
Same as if someone was looking for a spare ball or or spare shirt, or retrieving the ball from the bushes
 

SimonSmith


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In the weeds i would stop my shot clock while the touchline looked for tee.
Same as if someone was looking for a spare ball or or spare shirt, or retrieving the ball from the bushes
I can't do that here.

We can only stop the clock in either the semi final, or the Grand Final. Other than that, clock keeps running, so kickers do get the hurry up
 

crossref


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I can't do that here.

We can only stop the clock in either the semi final, or the Grand Final. Other than that, clock keeps running, so kickers do get the hurry up
We have discussed that before, it is a real incentive to timewaste, and must make quite a lot of difference in how you ref many scenarios.
 

didds

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We have discussed that before, it is a real incentive to timewaste, and must make quite a lot of difference in how you ref many scenarios.
admittedly this was now 30 years ago, but when I last played Sydney subbies at typically 3rd XV level with a KO at 1pm, and 30 minute halves immediate turn round, I dont recall any C&O time wasting by any teams - I think we all just wanted to pack as much rugby as we could into our allotted 60 minutes. It was pretty frenetic stuff at times (similar experiences in 1988 when I played subbies too).
It wasnt unusual either as a front rower to finish one game and be "asked" to bench for the next game - my first ever game in 1988 in subbies i finished one game, benched for the next and was on again after 3 minutes after an injury. All but 2 hours non stop playing!
 

SimonSmith


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admittedly this was now 30 years ago, but when I last played Sydney subbies at typically 3rd XV level with a KO at 1pm, and 30 minute halves immediate turn round, I dont recall any C&O time wasting by any teams - I think we all just wanted to pack as much rugby as we could into our allotted 60 minutes. It was pretty frenetic stuff at times (similar experiences in 1988 when I played subbies too).
It wasnt unusual either as a front rower to finish one game and be "asked" to bench for the next game - my first ever game in 1988 in subbies i finished one game, benched for the next and was on again after 3 minutes after an injury. All but 2 hours non stop playing!
Yeah. This holds true. There isn't a lot of timewasting, and a quick warning word normally solves the problem.

Because there's only 4 teams where we are, there is an element of MAD - if a team messes around one week, they'll get back in spades the next they meet...
 

Dickie E


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I can't do that here.

We can only stop the clock in either the semi final, or the Grand Final. Other than that, clock keeps running, so kickers do get the hurry up
do you mean you physically can't stop the clock or aren't allowed to? what about for an injury?
 

didds

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Because there's only 4 teams where we are, there is an element of MAD - if a team messes around one week, they'll get back in spades the next they meet...
How many times do they each play each other per season Simon?
A four team league only provides "normally" six fixtures per season with home and away games, so i suppose doubling that to give 12 fixtures may work... which is four games against each oppo ... much more than that would just get a bit incestuous ? 🙃

And do players switch clubs often?
 
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