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BikingBud


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I feel we are seeing a symptom and not the true cause.

I ask why are we not able to perform for 80 mins and why do we consider a short period of fightback as acceptable.

When England play fast and hard from the outset it sets up a great game but too often they retreat into a kicking game. They are not fully confident, forget arrogance but justifiably confident, in their skill, fitness, ability, preparation and game plan to win the game. The only goal of sport!

They kick ball away because they are afraid to lose, they are playing chicken with the opposition but in fact they are the ones that are scared of making mistakes. I wish they would demonstrate flair and confidence, to challenge and take on defenders, to use pace, to exploit gaps and to use the ball effectively. But they don't and we can all see this underperforming and we make our judgments, for me the coach was not using the resources effectively and has not been for a number of years.

OF is not a captain as he is unable to observe and react effectively to a game that unfolds in a different manner to the one he has been prepared for. His ability is so lacking that he cannot assess and verbalise in the post match interview, without having someone coach him through the video, where it went wrong!

Is it too late to correct this before RWC, perhaps but I would rather see a team that has a plan, is seeking to establish an identity, see growth and progress as key areas of focus rather than just having a fear of losing.

Debentures = money grabbing opportunity not grass root rugby fans.

ETA - maybe that's why at the moment I find the women's game so much better to watch.
 

Volun-selected


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OF is not a captain
Personally, I think Ford is much better at reading the game and I expect he knows what SB expects and what plays he will run.

ETA - maybe that's why at the moment I find the women's game so much better to watch.
Can't argue with that - the recent tournament was a joy to watch.

I guess one advantage SB has is that if England do badly then the RFU will just blame Eddie. If England do well, then SB is "obviously doing something right".
 

Harry

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For my two pennorth, I think they are over coached. They appear unable to play what is in front of them and stick to the planned move come what may.
 

SimonSmith


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I feel we are seeing a symptom and not the true cause.

I ask why are we not able to perform for 80 mins and why do we consider a short period of fightback as acceptable.

When England play fast and hard from the outset it sets up a great game but too often they retreat into a kicking game. They are not fully confident, forget arrogance but justifiably confident, in their skill, fitness, ability, preparation and game plan to win the game. The only goal of sport!

They kick ball away because they are afraid to lose, they are playing chicken with the opposition but in fact they are the ones that are scared of making mistakes. I wish they would demonstrate flair and confidence, to challenge and take on defenders, to use pace, to exploit gaps and to use the ball effectively. But they don't and we can all see this underperforming and we make our judgments, for me the coach was not using the resources effectively and has not been for a number of years.

OF is not a captain as he is unable to observe and react effectively to a game that unfolds in a different manner to the one he has been prepared for. His ability is so lacking that he cannot assess and verbalise in the post match interview, without having someone coach him through the video, where it went wrong!

Is it too late to correct this before RWC, perhaps but I would rather see a team that has a plan, is seeking to establish an identity, see growth and progress as key areas of focus rather than just having a fear of losing.

Debentures = money grabbing opportunity not grass root rugby fans.

ETA - maybe that's why at the moment I find the women's game so much better to watch.
*Rob Andrew and Geoff Cooke have entered the forum*
 

Dickie E


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ETA - maybe that's why at the moment I find the women's game so much better to watch.
I'm hearing that but an entertaining bantamweight bout isn't in the same league as a dour heavyweight fight
 

BikingBud


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@SimonSmith
Andrew and Cooke - Are you suggesting that's England's long running and only possible successful game plan?

By my recollection a period when the abilities and skills of one of the world's finest wingers were stymied and the ability to play open and aggressive rugby was severely restricted due to that coaching to the extent that they were unable to "play" during the final of RWC 1991. Yet Cooke is listed as the 3rd most successful England coach after the recently departed EJ and Jack Rowell.
 

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I'm hearing that but an entertaining bantamweight bout isn't in the same league as a dour heavyweight fight

Whether the WRWC or the W6N, so far I've enjoyed every match I watched - and since we are in a competition for audiences to fund the game then what makes for entertainment and who needs to be entertained is probably a key question for all the main bodies.

They elite women players on average will not be as fast as the elite men (though they'd run me off the pitch in minutes) but with the professional development the skills are coming along in leaps and bounds.

I'd happily watch an entertaining women's match over 2 premier clubs stuck in a stalemate grinding through a war of attrition. And when someone like Abby Dow gets her hands on the ball, what happens next is often wonderful to watch.
 

crossref


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Gosh, above I suggested that England should take into account the crowd, when making decisions ..
 

Dickie E


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I'd happily watch an entertaining women's match over 2 premier clubs stuck in a stalemate grinding through a war of attrition.
One question. I've a platinum ticket to the next men's World Cup final and a platinum ticket to the next women's World Cup final. Which one can I send you? [accom, flights & booze not included :)]

And the "stalemate grinding through a war of attrition" comes back to a post I made on another thread. Our field isn't big enough to allow 30 Orcs to do their thing.

There will always be an issue whenever you have a sport where the desire to win and the desire to entertain are sometimes mutually exclusive. Maybe the laws/rules need to be geared towards the team that entertains is the team that wins.
 

SimonSmith


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I'm hearing that but an entertaining bantamweight bout isn't in the same league as a dour heavyweight fight
Some of the best fights I've seen have been middleweight, when Benn/Eubank/Watson were at their peak.
 

SimonSmith


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One question. I've a platinum ticket to the next men's World Cup final and a platinum ticket to the next women's World Cup final. Which one can I send you? [accom, flights & booze not included :)]
I'd honestly take the Women's. I'll enjoy the game, and there is absolutely no chance Scotland make the Men's final. That's an easy one.
 

didds

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I'd honestly take the Women's. I'll enjoy the game, and there is absolutely no chance Scotland make the Men's final. That's an easy one.
Holly Davidson might be in either ;-)

 

Stu10


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I feel we are seeing a symptom and not the true cause.

I ask why are we not able to perform for 80 mins and why do we consider a short period of fightback as acceptable.

When England play fast and hard from the outset it sets up a great game but too often they retreat into a kicking game. They are not fully confident, forget arrogance but justifiably confident, in their skill, fitness, ability, preparation and game plan to win the game. The only goal of sport!

They kick ball away because they are afraid to lose, they are playing chicken with the opposition but in fact they are the ones that are scared of making mistakes. I wish they would demonstrate flair and confidence, to challenge and take on defenders, to use pace, to exploit gaps and to use the ball effectively. But they don't and we can all see this underperforming and we make our judgments, for me the coach was not using the resources effectively and has not been for a number of years.
I think you raise some valid points, and this separates Eng from the SH team in particular.

What frustrates me most is that we see some beautiful running rugby and offloading in the Prem, but none of it carries over to the national team.
 

shebeen

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One question. I've a platinum ticket to the next men's World Cup final and a platinum ticket to the next women's World Cup final. Which one can I send you? [accom, flights & booze not included :)]
Paris '23 or London '25?
Currently I'd take France in a heartbeat, but with the trajectory the women's game is growing it is an impossible call to make now. Interesting times for both games
 

Volun-selected


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One question. I've a platinum ticket to the next men's World Cup final and a platinum ticket to the next women's World Cup final. Which one can I send you? [accom, flights & booze not included :)]
I’d take the men’s … so I can sell it and have enough to buy a women’s platinum pass *and* have enough spare for decent flights and top hotel.
 
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