wrong team throws in line out!

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OK, so here goes...Greens put in a massive kick from their 22 to blacks 22.LO was awarded 5m from blacks goal line..Ubeknown to me, greens took LO, even though black TJ and coach were on that side and scored in the opposite corner.It wasn't until green were lining up their conversion that black captain raised the point.I explained that once the try is awarded I have to stick with it, he accepted my decision and I credited him for it.As I posted earlier, maybe I should have gone over to TJ and double checked, thereby resulting in try disallowed, in hindsight !

What was Black TJ signaling, Green or Black throw?
 

wrighty


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All time ref, it was an U/18 match and the TJ was a sub.Basically all he did was stick his arm up when ball went into touch and I would call LO green/black ball.I marked LO, indicated black throw, then concentrated on formation of LO, forgot to check thrower !
 

wrighty


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Law 6 A 5 Altering a decision, leads me to now think I was correct in sticking with awarding the try.
 

crossref


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All time ref, it was an U/18 match and the TJ was a sub.Basically all he did was stick his arm up when ball went into touch and I would call LO green/black ball.I marked LO, indicated black throw, then concentrated on formation of LO, forgot to check thrower !

that is not unusual.
for an U18 game the first time he does that I would always time off quickly and have a chat with him and stress the importance of signalling the throw, and what they need to do. Is that OK? I have found this does work and they will generally then do it - ie you can train them!
 

Dixie


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Law 6 A 5 Altering a decision, leads me to now think I was correct in sticking with awarding the try.
let me throw a different law into the mix:

[LAWS]6.A.5 REFEREE ALTERING A DECISION
The referee may alter a decision when a touch judge has raised the flag to to signal touch.[/LAWS]

[LAWS]6.B.5 (d) When to lower the flag. When the ball is thrown in, the touch judge or assistant referee must lower the flag, with the following exceptions:
Exception 1: When the player throwing in puts any part of either foot in the field of play, the touch judge or assistant referee keeps the flag up.
Exception 2: When the team not entitled to throw in has done so, the touch judge or assistant referee keeps the flag up.[/LAWS]

There seems little point in keeping the flag up if the referee is not entitled to act upon it. What if the ref has awarded a knock-on from the improper throw-in, then notices the TJ's flag still up? Is he prevented from changing his decison? We also need to recognise that very few of the decisions we make result in the blowing of the whistle. By the time the ball is caught in the lineout, we have decided that the throw was taken from the right place, by the right team, without a dummy motion, without any early jump, without a foot in touch, that the ball travelled 5m and the throw was straight. We've made all these decisions - are we now prevented from acting on the TJ's flag because our second decision was wrong? If so, the law is inoperative.
 

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explained that once the try is awarded I have to stick with it
As a blanket statement that is clearly wrong.

Many years ago, when last year's captains ran the line for the Varsity match, I remember a TJ standing for ages with his flag up unnoticed while somebody scored. Once the referee was aware of it, play was brought back. (I think it was actually the TJ's team that had "scored".)

I have certainly seen ARs get a try cancelled in the modern game.
 

wrighty


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Dixie,OB,when you apply that Law it would have made sense for me to have gone over to the young lad TJ ing,even though his arm wasn't raised because he probably didn't realise himself ! Have a quick word ,then go back to have the LO done correctly !Luckily it didn't affect the result and credit to the team on the wrong end of the decision,they accepted my ruling at the time.Live and learn from mistakes and in the words of The Who ..''Won't get fooled again'' (hopefully ).
 

didds

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sorry ATTR - I misread your post!

didds
 

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All time ref, it was an U/18 match and the TJ was a sub.Basically all he did was stick his arm up when ball went into touch and I would call LO green/black ball.I marked LO, indicated black throw, then concentrated on formation of LO, forgot to check thrower !

So no suggestion of cheating then. Well not by the TJ anyway.

Chalk it off to experience and make sure you check next time. In law, I'd say, the try should stand. Thankfully no harm done. We've al done similar things. Apologise and move on.
 

Daftmedic


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Hey buddy. I wouldn't really worry about it. We all make mistakes. Put it down as a learning point and move on. The most important thing is did the teams have an enjoyable game?
Did you enjoy yourself?
 

L'irlandais

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A momentary lapse in concentration ! In hindsight and after reading all the posts,I would have consulted the TJ in order to double check and then disallowed the try.
Any body can make a mistake. I think it's difficult to come back and disallow the try after the conversion has been taken. You'll lose credibility, imho. (I've no law reference to quote, OB..) Hold your hand up afterwards and say Sorry I made a mistake. We live and learn ; you're up there with the best of refs - Jonathan Kaplan .
 

OB..


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Any body can make a mistake. I think it's difficult to come back and disallow the try after the conversion has been taken. You'll lose credibility, imho. (I've no law reference to quote, OB..)
I don't think the point is covered by the Laws, but I am interested in the rationale.

If you learn about the mistake at the next break in play, then I do not see why you should not go back to correct it. If you don't find out until half time, then of course it is too late. Whether or not the conversion makes it too late depends on the circumstances.
 

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The law quotes above say so. Should we be swayed by a player who feels hard done by? Strictly the score has been awarded unless the AR / TJ indicated there is a problem why are we altering our call? What is to stop a second player pulling a similar stunt later.

I agree if we realise that we were mistaken things might be different. However, that should be the exception rather than the rule.
 

Dickie E


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"ref, they took the last kick-off with the wrong type of kick. Please disallow that try"

"ref, we only had 7 in the last scrum. Please disallow that try"

"ref, our winger was doing up his boot lace. Please disallow that try"

"ref, I don't think they kicked the ball properly at their last penalty. Please disallow that try"

"ref, that should have been our lineout. Please disallow that try"

Bad luck. Time to move on.
 

menace


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"ref, they took the last kick-off with the wrong type of kick. Please disallow that try"

"ref, we only had 7 in the last scrum. Please disallow that try"

"ref, our winger was doing up his boot lace. Please disallow that try"

"ref, I don't think they kicked the ball properly at their last penalty. Please disallow that try"

"ref, that should have been our lineout. Please disallow that try"

Bad luck. Time to move on.

You're just being silly now. No one has suggested not to use some common sense in whatever the scenario given. IMO, There is no law that says the referee cannot change their decision.

You're scenarios are just as bad as me suggesting "Sorry fellas, I know I signalled the PK the wrong way, but it's too late now I'm not allowed to change it once I put my arm up. You just have to suck it up."
 

OB..


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"ref, they took the last kick-off with the wrong type of kick. Please disallow that try" Do you believe that?

"ref, we only had 7 in the last scrum. Please disallow that try" You cannot benefit from your own error. (estoppel qv)

"ref, our winger was doing up his boot lace. Please disallow that try" You cannot benefit from your own error.

"ref, I don't think they kicked the ball properly at their last penalty. Please disallow that try" Do you agree?

"ref, that should have been our lineout. Please disallow that try" Do you agree?

Bad luck. Time to move on.
Unhelpful collection. The problem only arises if the referee realises for some reason that he has made an error, and can correct it in a sensible fashion. We all know that "tries" can be called back eg if the AR flagged for the player being in touch and the referee missed it originally. If a referee refused to call it back on the grounds that he had awarded the try, I would mark it as a Critical Error.
 

Daftmedic


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I bought both skippers a beer when I made a boo boo.
 

OB..


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The law quotes above say so.
In 1999 the Laws said[LAWS]He cannot alter a decision unless he observes that a touch judge's flag is raised or before he has received a report from either or both of his touch judges relating to Section 4 (a).[/LAWS]
The current Law is phrased differently. The fact that it lists a couple of occasions for changing his mind does not necessarily imply that there are no other such circumstances. The Laws simply do not attempt to spell out all possibilities.

It is our job to make sense of the Laws.
 

Dickie E


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You're scenarios are just as bad as me suggesting "Sorry fellas, I know I signalled the PK the wrong way, but it's too late now I'm not allowed to change it once I put my arm up. You just have to suck it up."

My scenarios are analagous to "Sorry fellas, I know I signalled the PK the wrong way and I know I let the wrong team take the penalty and I know they scored from it. You just have to suck it up."

Once the ball is back in play stick by, and live with, your decisions.

- - - Updated - - -

Unhelpful collection.

It helped me.
 
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