Fed up ...

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

... the kindly old ref ....

What the...? :biggrin:

 

[Davet]

It's a bit like taking a QT after the lineout has formed: it doesn't have the effect of restarting the game - but you don't give turnover ball to the oppo.

Because the laws prohibit a turnover in those circumstances
19.2.c

 

[crossref]

cross ref - I suspect you will see some changes emerging over the next few years or so....

all of those sound constructive.

in my part of the country it's probably all the more confusing because the boundaries are so fluid.. we're in Mddx, but our league contains clubs in Herts, Middx and Bedfordshire so which CB is responsibile and which Scoieties? Plus we regularly play friendlies against clubs from Surrey, Hants, Sussex and Berks. So CBs are pretty interchanngable. The local Society is London, the boundaries of which (as you know) are different all over again. Meanwhile in we are so local to the RFU we see them all the time - administratively more than Middx.

Plus the same individuals crop up all the time. One person may easily have RFU, Middx and Society hats and sometimes you don't know (or care really) which hat he is wearing in any one email.

The admin of the rugby in England is certainly byzantine, and occasionally very frustrating....

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

we're in Mddx, but our league contains clubs in Herts, Middx and Bedfordshire so which CB is responsibile and which Scoieties? Plus we regularly play friendlies against clubs from Surrey, Hants, Sussex and Berks. So CBs are pretty interchanngable. The local Society is London, the boundaries of which (as you know) are different all over again. Meanwhile in we are so local to the RFU we see them all the time - administratively more than Middx.

....

If you didn't live in such pisspot little counties you'd be ok.:wink: :biggrin:

 

[crossref]

ah but wouldn't life be dull, playing the same eight clubs every season :wink:
with the same three refs..

 

[Simon Thomas]

To show how it works in our area for a club ref moving to Society :

Received today :

"This is my third season as a referee and I have been refereeing at AClub and at a boarding school in Somerset. I have covered pretty much all age groups up to under 16s.

I am keen to get more involved, and Sxxx Fxxxx (CRefC) , the head ref at AClub has recently encouraged me to start taking on adult games. I am already a member of the Society.

Please could you let me know how I should take it from here?

I guess there will be a mechamism to make sure I am refereeing the right level of game and to be assessed etc.

I look forward to hearing from you

Nxxxxl Mxxxxxxxxxs"
Our reply :

Welcome etc with a Society Guide, url of web site, availability form - and we set out actions and timings for 6 matches -first U15 or U16 at his club but with Society Assessor, + 5 more Society appts for adult matches, final one ELRA3 assessor.

Mentor will look after you , just call any of us, etc

Our actions :

Secretary and Treasurer - please confirm signed and paid up Society member
CRefC and Assessment Manager - select for club U15 or U16 and be watched.
Re-appts sec and ELRA3 mentor - arrange 5 more matches and get ELRA3 sign off
RFU Regional Ref Dev Manager and CB Ref Dev Manager cc'd for info.

 

[Phil E]

Phil E - you ask when he will learn if "refs keep letting him get away with it". I don't see he's got away with anything. He tried to restart in a way that cannot officially get the game going. I'd pull him back and make him do it properly - as I'm sure would all refs; but he hasn't committed an offence for which there is a sanction.

Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The
opposing team throws in the ball.

 

[Dixie]

Sanction: Any infringement by the kicker’s team results in a scrum at the mark. The
opposing team throws in the ball.

Sanction for what offence committed while the ball is dead?

 

[Davet]

eg - Advancing over the half way line before the ball is kicked, that is before the restart has happened, as in - while the ball is dead... perhaps?

 

[Blackberry]

About the instant appeals and the idea of bias:
First, I say in a slightly miffed but friendly voice, "Come on guys, don't forget you can whinge faster than I can whistle" which often politely makes the point.

With regards to the idea of complaints about a ref being biased, we have data on our side, we ref week in and week out, and if we were biased it would become apparent. If we were incompetent, it would become apparent, and our society knows this. You can feel comfortable that any of these "out of order" whinges will not stand even the most scant scrutiny. Last season I had a series of "Goods" and "Excellents" in my feedback (I was on a roll), followed by an absolute roasting in a visiting club's website because I spent 10 minutes shutting them up (they went onto win once I made them concentrate). I circulated the report to the other refs in the society, and next week my society sent an advisor down to my game not to check up on me, they know who I am, warts 'n all, but to make sure I was alright and to show support, and I thought that was a marvellous gesture.

Refs actually get more support from players and clubs than we often appreciate. I was playing out of county last season and the ref was safe, consistent, but really idiosyncratic in his decisions. The wonderful part was the lack of whinging from either side, and the sympathetic face pulling between opposing players which accompanied many decisions.

 

[crossref]

To show how it works in our area for a club ref moving to Society :

it's interesting that your correspondent is ALREADY a member of the Society, even though he isn't refereeing adult games and therefore not accepting Society appointments. That option isn't always available in other Societies.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

it's interesting that your correspondent is ALREADY a member of the Society, even though he isn't refereeing adult games and therefore not accepting Society appointments. That option isn't always available in other Societies.

I had to undertake to do 1 a month (adult fixture) before I was allowed in. When I first enquired I was turned down when I said "not every week" but luckily someone else with a bit more forethought rang me back.:bday:

 

[Mickman]

I had to undertake to do 1 a month (adult fixture) before I was allowed in. When I first enquired I was turned down when I said "not every week" but luckily someone else with a bit more forethought rang me back.:bday:

Well at least someone had the "forethought". Funny that in any other aspects of rugby (or most sport for that matter) it's a point of the more the merrier, get in and have a go, help out...

Back on post:
I must say it has been a fairly different experience refereeing in London compared to my home society (as I have mentioned on other posts, I am still thoroughly enjoying the opportunity now that I am used to, well, the cold the rain, the mud, players having a go at our cricket team etc) but one thing to consider, especially for junior games is a "ground manager" (often wears a high vis. vest).

Before you start to get images of heavy set security guards with batons.... Ground managers are appointed by the home club (often a member of the club's committee) to oversee the whole running/ coordination of game days, on and off the pitch.

All clubs must have a ground manager for ALL competition fixtures in my home society (junior and senior) with the full support of the zone association and referee society. Their role is to support and coordinate club, coaches, player and referee in numerous facets, one of which is "crowd/ coach control". Ground managers role is clearly defined and understood by any attending as having the final word on any issues - disreguard or failure to comply with directions can result in extended ban from any zone rugby fixture (and possibly any rugby fixture?? but I would have to check this).

Yellow high vis- ground manager, orange high vis- first aid. Helps greatly in structure of games. Monitor technical coaching area(s) and crowd, off field admin - player registration, score, sin bin etc as well. Sounds a bit over the top to start with but makes for a hell of an easier day for players, coaches, referees and spectators when people in these roles are highly visable and recognisable to all.

Some incidents still do happen (as they always unfortunately will) however most often, all it takes is a friendly quiet word as a "reminder" to any over zealous crowd/coach/player issues/abuse within the ground...

 

[crossref]

one thing to consider, especially for junior games is a "ground manager" (often wears a high vis. vest).

Before you start to get images of heavy set security guards with batons.... Ground managers are appointed by the home club (often a member of the club's committee) to oversee the whole running/ coordination of game days, on and off the pitch.

...

I like that idea - we actually have someone who fulfills pretty much that role (I suspect many clubs probably do) but not officially and and only the club insiders would no who he is. Someone you could approach there-and-then would be an excellent way of nipping problems in the bud before it's too late. So often here the remedy is write-to-the-club-afterwards and, of course, come Monday mornnig it's all yesterday and you can't be bothered.

 

[Mickman]

Yeah its worked great in sorting things out then and there... clubs haven't found it too much of a burden because it is more likely than not someone who is often at the club watching games during those times anyway. Also it helps to get clubs, referees and spectators working together rather than "us and them" mentality.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

I like that idea - we actually have someone who fulfills pretty much that role (I suspect many clubs probably do) but not officially and and only the club insiders would no who he is. Someone you could approach there-and-then would be an excellent way of nipping problems in the bud before it's too late. So often here the remedy is write-to-the-club-afterwards and, of course, come Monday mornnig it's all yesterday and you can't be bothered.

I agree I like the idea but not the idea of doing the job. It sounds bloody awful - like a cross between traffic warden/park keeper/school caretaker/community policeman/concierge. A yellow coat/waistcoat (my badge of office in highway engineering) does not carry much kudos - we are all lumped in with dustbin men and Keith Lard H&S types - "Burn baby burn, disco inferno, burn baby burn, burn that mother down - another child orphaned !"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPEL3c1_3G0&feature=related

The principle is excellent - recognisable point of contact with known mandate and teeth (hopefully) - it seems to together with your proper TJs/ARses at all levels, that the back office part of Rugby in Australia is must more "sorted" than here - pity you can't have a wash and a drink when you've finished!:biggrin:

 

[Mickman]

The principle is excellent - recognisable point of contact with known mandate and teeth (hopefully) - it seems to together with your proper TJs/ARses at all levels, that the back office part of Rugby in Australia is must more "sorted" than here - pity you can't have a wash and a drink when you've finished!:biggrin:

Must admit my zone competition is a LOT smaller than competition in London - but it is very nice to have accredited ARs because of how our competition is structured. We have 2/3/4 games a day at same venue, stagger game times so at least "main game" has official middle and 2 ARs. Game day builds and other grades get to watch and socialise during main game. Referees at community level get more of an opportunity to talk about situations/ incidents from games that they were ALL officiating . Also leads to more of a chance for coaching if coaches/assessors ref earlier games and then assess your game afterwards...

As for the drink... some clubs provide, others do not. But when it somes to the ones that don't, that's ok by me... I just think of the $30 to $60 I am paid for the game to cover that :biggrin: ... and the new kit I get every year (subsidised by first match pay)...ARs are paid as well :wow:...

 

[Simon Thomas]

it's interesting that your correspondent is ALREADY a member of the Society, even though he isn't refereeing adult games and therefore not accepting Society appointments. That option isn't always available in other Societies.

we have an open and inclusive approach - perhaps over time others will too

 

[PaulDG]

we have an open and inclusive approach - perhaps over time others will too

We do too.

Non members are welcome at meetings and while in theory you have to sign up to accepting regular appointments, in reality, if you can't do every Saturday then you can't do every Saturday and our appointments secretary is grateful for every warm body he can get in the first half of the season.

After Christmas (when the schools stop playing rugby) "better" appointments are harder to come by, but there's always a Sunday game that needs to be covered. (And, if we could (by which I mean "if we had enough referees"), we'd extend our cover down to U13, so we can always find something for a beginner.)

 

[Simon Thomas]

exactly the same PaulDG, as are other Societies I know of.