Fed up ...

Simon Thomas


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cross ref - I suspect you will see some changes emerging over the next few years or so, which were flagged to us at the Society Managers Conference last October, as Societies, CBs and club refs get closer & closer integration.

At the moment each CB does it their own way it seems. Some have a Society person as the (part time) paid CRefDevManager (which makes sense as they have the refereeing experience) and these Managers report to each of the RFU's full time Regional Referee Development Managers for the five divisions - both of these 'managers' have clear job specs and responsibilities, which were shared with Society Managers. All of the CRefC scheme is funded by RFU and CB, not the Society (who get no central RFU funding at all, and in many cases no CB funding either). These two regional and Cb manager level folks are your contacts as a CRefC.

Discipline is a CB responsibility (they are CPS & Court, refs are police). Some work closely with the Society (as ours does), others are unilateral. I am encouraged by R G-J (RFU National Referee Manager), and CD (RFU Southern Ref Dev Mgr) to offer resources and co-operate with our CBs CRef DevManager, who is a senior Society member.

Across the country some CRefCs are Society members, some are not - and that is brilliant, and the "standards bar" is definitely being raised for club refs with more support. In our CB both have been encouraged and a consolidation of the development pathway from club to Society Ref for those who wish to use it. Increasingly Society and Club Refs will get closer together and that is already happening in some CBs. To be clear that is all in support & resources - training, assessing, helping set up Club Societies, etc if required).
 

Dixie


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I take the view that after the ball has been made dead but before a restart, the position is it is is before the start - i.e. we are not yet playing rugby, so any knock-on or throw forward is of no interest to the referee.
 

Davet

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Is the restart only AFTER the completion of a proper Dropout?

In that event, why do the laws provide a remedy for an incorrectly taken restart?
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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In that event, why do the laws provide a remedy for an incorrectly taken restart?

Wrong type of kick or wrong place.

I was going on no kick no restart and I think Dixie agrees with me although I assume he will say so for himself. ;)
 

crossref


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U14s are actually pretty grown up, and can play some decent rugby.

For me if a player in an U14A game attempts a clever ruse, like one of those 22m drop out you see on TV that travels 1m, then if he ballses it up, it's a knock on.

Of course, if it's an U14 development game, and they let the new boy have a go at taking the 22m and he trips on his shoelace and does an air shot, I am going to let him have another go (after everyone is done laughing).
 

Phil E


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Did an U16 game the other week.

Penalty to Green on the opposition 22. Green player puts the ball down on the mark, looks round, picks the ball up and passes it.

Peep, Scrum to Red.

Why?

You didn't kick it off the mark.

But......I.......Oh crap!
 

Dixie


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Did an U16 game the other week.

Penalty to Green on the opposition 22. Green player puts the ball down on the mark, looks round, picks the ball up and passes it.

Peep, Scrum to Red.

Why?

You didn't kick it off the mark.

But......I.......Oh crap!
Let's just remodel that slightly ...

Did an adult L.7 game the other week.

Penalty to Green on the opposition 22. Green player ...picks the ball up and passes it to his Fly Half to kick.

Peep, Scrum to Red.

Why?

You didn't kick it off the mark.

But......I.......Oh crap - call yourself a referee?
I just can't see the attraction of playing smart-ass "Gotcha!" with players of any level - and particularly not with juniors.
 

Davet

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Wrong type of kick or wrong place.

I was going on no kick no restart and I think Dixie agrees with me although I assume he will say so for himself. ;)

In what way is a failure to kick at all classed the correct type of kick....
 

Phil E


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Let's just remodel that slightly ...

I just can't see the attraction of playing smart-ass "Gotcha!" with players of any level - and particularly not with juniors.

Who's playing gotcha? Penalty taps are inlcuded in my pre match brief.

What does he learn if ref's keep letting him get away with it?
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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In what way is a failure to kick at all classed the correct type of kick....

Without getting all Chopperesque. This is my view of what I did.

No kick = No restart therefore no knock on - so pick it up and do it again.

My view of correct type of kick is drop kick (kicked with between knee and foot) and not a punt nor place kick etc.

You, Crossref and ST say knock on me and Dixie (I think) say do it again.

If I'd given the KO I'm sure no-one would have said but the re-start hasn't happened.........maybe it's one of those "don't give the coach a chance to get on your back" USA type decisions. KO would get you an easier life.

Anyway it's done. :biggrin:
 

Davet

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I didn't say Knock on -

I said wrong way to restart, option to opposition - D.O. again or scrum middle of 22?
 

Lee Lifeson-Peart


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:biggrin:
I didn't say Knock on -

I said wrong way to restart, option to opposition - D.O. again or scrum middle of 22?

Sorry - you're right you didn't suggest KO.

Perhaps I just gave the oppos the option of DO again or nothing! :biggrin:
 

Davet

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:D :cool: - I see, you didn't want to confuse them too much...
 

crossref


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what would you all do at adult level?

I am of the view that an U14 game at this level there is no special allowance needed for their youth (for things like this)

as discussed in aother thread.. you let this guy take it again, and then you have set yourself up for a potnetial problem. Equity means leeway for one team means leeway for the other ...
 

OB..


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(1) Fly half is ready to take the drop out, but his forwards are in front of him. He signals vigorously to them with one arm, and inadvertently drops the ball forward.

(2) A prop picks up the ball just on the 22 and notices there is nobody in front of him. He attempts a short drop kick but the ball bounces away from him so he dives on it.

I would ignore (1) and give the opponents the option in (2).

Some years ago a player grounded the ball in his own in-goal and then kicked it to his fly half for the drop out. In fact the kick to the fly half was a drop kick. Had he restarted the game so that the fly half was offside?

The referee after wards said he had seen the drop kick, but it never occurred to him to consider it a re-start kick.

I like to see a referee making sense of the laws when he can.
 

crossref


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or you often see
- player gathers the ball in touch and looks for opportunity for a QT...
- after a moment or two he decides the QT is not on, so he tosses the ball to his hooker in the tramlines who is trotting toward him to take the line out...

- only a pedant would peep - FK not going 5m..

But what would you give if the hapless hooker was immediately flattened by an unexpected tackle.
 

Davet

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Not sure I'v actually seen that - they usually just drop the ball where they are and trot off.

Now if the player, after deciding no QT was on, casually tossed the ball to his 2 who was just infield of the 5m....

- Would we consider that a QT - albeit a stupid one when the 2 got flattened

if so, and I'm not sure without ESP how we know it's not, then the answer to Crossref's query is clear.

What difference would it make if the 2, having caught the ball, set off on run...
 

crossref


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so maybe if the player abandons the QT and tosses it to his 2 who is just infield ... you should blow your whistle quickly for safety sake ... just to make sure it's clear to everyone that you consider that the ball is still dead .. so that the 2 isn't unexpectedly flattened...


(davet - yes indeed I wasn't very clear I meant to say that you often see players shaping up for a QT and then deciding not... but yes they drop it, not toss it)
 

Dixie


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LLP - I'm in your corner (and thanks for taking care not to put words into my keyboard). Phil E - you ask when he will learn if "refs keep letting him get away with it". I don't see he's got away with anything. He tried to restart in a way that cannot officially get the game going. I'd pull him back and make him do it properly - as I'm sure would all refs; but he hasn't committed an offence for which there is a sanction. It's a bit like taking a QT after the lineout has formed: it doesn't have the effect of restarting the game - but you don't give turnover ball to the oppo.
 

Davet

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And if he punted the ball rather than drop kicked it.

Or dropkicked from well over the 22...

has he tried to restart in a way that cannot officially get the game going?

For clarity - I am not hell bent on pinging him - but more making the point that at a decent level of rugby then all concerned should know what they are doing and be able to do it - and that lack of knowledge and skill has consequences.

The opposition are entitled to a fair crack as well, and not have the kindly old ref smile gently and let their opponents off with an "oh dear, that wasn't right was it, never mind - try again, young shaver, eh?:) "
 
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