Match Payments

[SimonSmith]

$50 per coaching report

Which means, on my hourly rate at work, I take a loss

 

[Robert Burns]

It does seem that way Phil, but unfortunately over here, as I mentioned earlier, from my experience;
We don't get reimbursed for petrol under 150km
We don't get a couple of beers
We don't get some food
And
We don't get some good banter (unless you call abuse and dissent as banter).
It's a different culture here, so yeah, we feel we're taken for granted a lot of the time.

I don't get petrol
I do normally get a couple of beers
I do normally get some food
I get varying degrees of banter.
Every club has a fairly decent clubhouse!

You should move to WA! :biggrin:

FWIW, We've now moved away from writing reports all the time.

Yes, we do formal reports when it's appropriate for the grading committee, but we're also doing a lot of coaching/advising now to give support, suggest a few things that could have been done differently, etc. with nothing written down.

The idea is to get away from the "Oh God, I've got an assessor this Saturday" towards "Oh good, Terry/Mike/John/Paul's going to come along on Saturday, maybe he'll have some ideas about why I'm missing so much at the breakdown..."

We report for Juniors, it helps them lots, for seniors we use the GPR, it's all online and works really well when the coaches add their feedback to it.

This year we are also going to be using analysis software I hope, so will be able to look at every scrum, lineout, penalty, etc... Looking forward to it.


As a different angle, how many of you have to pay to be in your association/society?

I have to pay $100 a season ($60 for those still in full time education) but I get lots more back from that in Match fees as a coach & as a Ref.

 

[menace]

We don't pay association fees (Brumbies, by agreement, are supposed to pay i as a subsidy to encourage referee recruitment and retention, but they haven't forked out for 3 years) as such we run on the smell of an oily rag of other fund raising ....and the crunch has come that we have to cut back on referee development things or introduce association fees so we can operate and provide at least 'some' sort of service to the members. It's a rediculous situation we are in. We simply cannot afford any decent services now - forget development and new initiatives! If we were getting some sort of payment, then a rego fee wouldn't be an issue and we could provide better development and services.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I've heard some rumours that 'they' are considering introducing a payment for referees a la football (who can expect a minimum of £20-25 for junior games). Not sure how much truth/likelihood is behind this?

There have been past reviews in RFU about this and yes a RFRU working party are looking at it again.

likelihood is low IMHO.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Wonder if it'll ever happen in rugby?!

It is happening right now in a high profile case in England .

 

[Simon Thomas]

In the UK, as long as you're not getting more than 45p per mile and doing no more than 10,000 miles per annum on expenses, HMRC deems that there is no profit element involved and therefore nothing to declare as taxable income (according to my accountant and he's paid to keep me honest).

As you say as long as it is just travel expenses that is fine but Panel and Elite Premiership MatchOfficials are paid a match fee as well as travel expenses. That is under contract and RFU pays PAYE and NI.

 

[crossref]

There have been past reviews in RFU about this and yes a RFRU working party are looking at it again.

likelihood is low IMHO.

perhaps the RFU could define what they think is best practice and clubs can decide whether to work towards that, if they wish/can
This is how the RFU do a lot of things.

I mean it's not clear to me whether the RFU would think it was desirable for a clubs to pay club refs for each game. I am not sure it is desirable.

In my sons age group are three or four dads who coach/ help coach / administrate / first aid. And myself who sometimes referees them. I don't really see why I should be the only one to collect £20 for my time.

If I go and ref another age group in the same club, same thing really. I am more than happy to accept a pint, but to be honest it's not totally clear I deserve it particualrly. No one buys the coach a pint, or the first aider.

 

[Adam]

I don't get petrol
I do normally get a couple of beers
I do normally get some food
I get varying degrees of banter.
Every club has a fairly decent clubhouse!

You should move to WA! :biggrin:

Provided my exams go well next week and I am successful in my application in early January I will be resident there for at least 7 weeks of June and July 2014.

 

[Toby Warren]

All sorts of issues with a £20 match fee.

Are you an employee?
Do you get holiday pay?
Does RFu pay employers NI
Is there employers liability Insurance?
Is £20 minimum wage compliant

A LOT of aggrivation for the ref to receive a few quid (for many of us on here it £20 would be less than £8 net.

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Provided my exams go well next week and I am successful in my application in early January I will be resident there for at least 7 weeks of June and July 2014.

Whey hey!

 

[Browner]

There have been past reviews in RFU about this and yes a RFRU working party are looking at it again.

likelihood is low IMHO.

The 'salaried' deciding what's best for volunteers ?

.... We had something like this at my previous Club, the Executive committee would convene , drink free beer & nosh on the buffet whilst they decide on how the volunteers should do more !

 

[Browner]

It is happening right now in a high profile case in England .

Sorry Simon, I forgot to add the " :sarc: ", i thought my "?!" might have been the clue that I knew :wink:.

 

[Browner]

perhaps the RFU could define what they think is best practice and clubs can decide whether to work towards that, if they wish/can
This is how the RFU do a lot of things.

I mean it's not clear to me whether the RFU would think it was desirable for a clubs to pay club refs for each game. I am not sure it is desirable.

In my sons age group are three or four dads who coach/ help coach / administrate / first aid. And myself who sometimes referees them. I don't really see why I should be the only one to collect £20 for my time.

If I go and ref another age group in the same club, same thing really. I am more than happy to accept a pint, but to be honest it's not totally clear I deserve it particualrly. No one buys the coach a pint, or the first aider.

I don't think anyone expects "own son" volunteers to be compensated at Grass Roots.
Referee swapping between age groups isn't dissimilar [arguably].

It's formal refereeing that's the issue....where you have to plan, prepare, fitness, train, study, report, travel, give time, administer, fees to join, .... that I'm refering to.

If people are happy volunteering then they should have the option to donate their fees to a club/assoc/charity of their choice, but to refuse to reward/recompense the other referees is quite frankly archaic & societies need to align with the modern world.

 

[crossref]

I don't think anyone expects "own son" volunteers to be compensated at Grass Roots.
Referee swapping between age groups isn't dissimilar [arguably].

It's formal refereeing that's the issue....where you have to plan, prepare, fitness, train, study, report, travel, give time, administer, fees to join, .... that I'm refering to.

once you are out of the realm of little kids playing tag, the two situations are not different

It's a complete myth that club refs have no requirments on fitness, training, admin etc etc. All of club refs are ELRA trained and have to be fit etc.

Also very often club refs and society refs are one and same people, just doing different roles.

it's also a myth that club-refs are invariably or necessarily doing lower importance games.

This weekend I am doing
- Saturday a 3rd XV team merit table match, L11.
- Sunday a U17 A team local derby.

The Sunday game will be more skillful, faster, likely more aggressive and in the scheme of things more important to the clubs : it's the U17 players that might be in the 1st XV in two years time (although of equal importance to the players I am sure). I expect the Sunday game will have many more spectators.

there's no reason to say that my saturday game deserves the £20 more than my Sunday one does.

 

[Simon Thomas]

perhaps the RFU could define what they think is best practice and clubs can decide whether to work towards that, if they wish/can
This is how the RFU do a lot of things.

I mean it's not clear to me whether the RFU would think it was desirable for a clubs to pay club refs for each game. I am not sure it is desirable.

In my sons age group are three or four dads who coach/ help coach / administrate / first aid. And myself who sometimes referees them. I don't really see why I should be the only one to collect £20 for my time.

If I go and ref another age group in the same club, same thing really. I am more than happy to accept a pint, but to be honest it's not totally clear I deserve it particualrly. No one buys the coach a pint, or the first aider.

crossref - I agree with you that RFU do not want Match fees to cover 'time' to Club Refs, nor to most levels of Society Refs either. From past conversations I have had with RFU Refs Dept. theere has been a strong Council bias to volunteer refs. For the new Development Department it is the least of their worries currently as they are mostly with out any management and with Societies asking for resources. However as we get a decline in Society Referee numbers and quality of any recruits, the whole Recruitment & Retention discussion will come up yet again and so will referee payment. Hence RFRU are looking at it pro-actively.

The OP was regarding paying refs for Junior/Youth matches. In RFUland these are mostly Club Refs, or Society Refs acting as Club Refs, at their home club (no travel expenses) as volunteers - I cannot see that changing, so a match fee payment does not arise based on the wonderful volunteer culture we have. Many clubs are stuggling financially as it is and cannot afford to pay any travel expenses (we used to have a local club referee swap scheme but it was discontinued due to travel costs) let alone referee match fees for Junior / Youth matches.

Some of us made comments about Society and Panel referee match payments but they are not really relevant to the OP re Junior/Youth match referees.

At Adult levels Clubs already pay a match fee to the Society (£25-40 depending on Society and sometimes it also varies by level of game up to L6, as each Society sets its own fees), which pays for Society admin, training etc and usually the travel too (some Societies have lower match fees and refs are reimbursed for travel on the day in cash by the club). For L5 to L1 Refs RFU charge clubs direct to pay for the Group (travel expenses only), Panel & Elite set ups.

I can't see the RFU pro-actively pushing the Referee Match Fee question in the current climate.

 

[Simon Thomas]

The 'salaried' deciding what's best for volunteers ?

.... We had something like this at my previous Club, the Executive committee would convene , drink free beer & nosh on the buffet whilst they decide on how the volunteers should do more !

No salaried folks on RFRU.

All those on the RFRU Committee are a volunteer from a Federation, and also often Society Committee too, as well as being active referees, referee coaches and match observers. The salaried staff (Ed, Savvo, Gary, etc - or whomever is left in those jobs these days) attend to report on the "paid dept" activities.

Likewise the RFU Community Game Board and indeed RFU Council are almost all non-paid volunteers - and those paid Executive are there to report usually.

Most clubs I now have perhaps a paid DoR, Coach, maybe a few players paid too if National League levels, a Clubhouse Manager maybe, and perhaps a part-time paid Adminsirator or Secretary. But the majority of the Committees I have been on at Club and Societies / Federations are all volunteers and pay money into the club as sponsors, guarantors to loans, or just to keep the club going,

 

[Simon Thomas]

Sorry Simon, I forgot to add the " :sarc: ", i thought my "?!" might have been the clue that I knew :wink:.

Browner - I can never be sure with you :biggrin:. Also front of my mind as we had a Society Committee meeting (all unpaid volunteers) Monday and I heard more about that specific situation.

 

[irishref]

in the Netherlands either

- 23 cents per km or (as in my case)

- the cost of the train. I have a 40% discount card so I'm really cheap

Also the competition rules dictate the home club has to pick up the ref from the nearest train station if he (or she) so requires. All claimed by the ref directly with the union.

Never had any hosting club offering anything less than a pre-game coffee, sport drink at halftime and plenty of liquids post game. Plus informal evaluation!

 

[Simon Thomas]

If people are happy volunteering then they should have the option to donate their fees to a club/assoc/charity of their choice, but to refuse to reward/recompense the other referees is quite frankly archaic & societies need to align with the modern world.

Browner - Sorry but you are talking out of your ar*se !

I have run a Society of 100+ referees for 7 seasons and we had to balance a budget of £45,000-£55,000 over that time, 85% of which is cost of travel claimed offset against match fees charged (at £30). We get no money from RFU and no money from CB. Any sponsorship money we have to get ourselves and we use that for special extras like Young Officials, Recruitment, Training Equipment, etc - not on Stash.

We are totally aligned with the modern world in terms of the training and development techniques we apply, the technology we use, and cost saving measures applied. We recognise the volunteer nature of our members, and our own admin time given freely.

Once you start charging clubs for referees, you change the whole dynamic, expectations, service delivery, etc - just look at what has happened at Panel and especially Elite where PRL especially with GASH's review process is a commercial relationship. In making that change you bring in more admin and management tasks and so you need at least one paid Society administrator perhaps.

We discussed this topic at the summer's Lensubury Society Leaders Conference and most were against paid referees below Level 4.

 

[irishref]

Oh sorry, I saw the proviso in the question concerning Junior rugby. In NL the only underage grade that has appointed refs is Colts. All other underage rugby is played on Saturday (not Sunday as the bulk of the game here) and then it's home-appointed refs.