[Law] Can a player return from a Yellow Card when the clock is beyond 80 minutes?

[L'irlandais]

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because
- he's done his ten minutes and is waiting for suitable break, that will enable him to come on
- a scrum is a suitable break. In fact it's the perfect moment.

[I'd also let a YC player come back on the pitch if a PK was a kick for goal]

i think a PK is a suitable moment.
However doesn't awarding a scrum end the game?
[laws]If time expires and the ball is not dead, or an awarded scrum or lineout has not been completed, the referee allows play to continue until the next time that the ball becomes dead. The ball becomes dead when the referee would have awarded a scrum, lineout, an option to the non-infringing team, drop out or after a conversion or successful penalty kick at goal. If a scrum has to be reset, the scrum has not been completed. If time expires and a mark, free kick or penalty kick is then awarded, the referee allows play to continue.[/laws]

 

[crossref]

my example was that you award a PK, and they opt for a scrum.


In general I think PK is more often that not an appropriate moment to bring back a YC player

If the PK is to Red
- if Red choose a scrum, I'd allow YC players of either team to come on
- if Red choose to kick for goal, I'd allow YC players of either team to come on
- if Red want to pause, specifically to allow time for YC player to return, I'd let him on
- if Red go into a huddle to decide what to do, I'd say that provides a suitable break for blue YC player to come on
- if I award a PK, but there is serious injury to attend to, so I stop them from going quick, then this affords an opportunity for YC players from either team come back on


Really, I think the only exception really is if Red act quickly and take a quick tap. They are entitled to do that, and YC players have to wait a bit longer.

 

[BigClothesSir]

If play is still going on after the 10 has elapsed then the 80 is up as well.

Therefore this phase of play started whilst said player was still in the bin and he should not be allowed to re-join it part way in.

That's how I see it (as did the Level 5 fella last night).

 

[L'irlandais]

Okay you award a PK.
But surely if the game is to restart with a scrum ( option) then the put-in is to "No side." Accompanied with a blast of the whistle and arm outstretched to the changing rooms?

 

[BigClothesSir]

Let's look at this another way. 99.9% of the time this isn't going to happen and a player binned in the last 10 minutes will NOT serve a full 10 minutes playing-time sanction which disadvantages the side that is sinned against more than if it had happened at other times in the game.

Why should we protect a binned player in the 0.1% of the cases where it will be that he misses a little bit more than the 10 minute sanction?

 

[crossref]

Let's look at this another way. 99.9% of the time this isn't going to happen and a player binned in the last 10 minutes will NOT serve a full 10 minutes playing-time sanction which disadvantages the side that is sinned against more than if it had happened at other times in the game.

Why should we protect a binned player in the 0.1% of the cases where it will be that he misses a little bit more than the 10 minute sanction?

because if he has done his ten mins, and then there is a suitable break, then he's entitled to come on

I agree we have room to discuss what is a suitable break in play, but if we agree that [say] a PK at goal is a suitable break then I don't see that it makes any difference what time is on the clock.

 

[crossref]

Okay you award a PK.
But surely if the game is to restart with a scrum ( option) then the put-in is to "No side." Accompanied with a blast of the whistle and arm outstretched to the changing rooms?

but if you award a PK and they choose a scrum, that's not the end of the game - we have the scrum.

 

[BigClothesSir]

because if he has done his ten mins, and then there is a suitable break, then he's entitled to come on

I agree we have room to discuss what is a suitable break in play, but if we agree that [say] a PK at goal is a suitable break then I don't see that it makes any difference what time is on the clock.

I think that never the twain shall meet. Touch and scrum infringements I see as suitable breaks in play, but not PK's.

A team desperately defending a 5 point lead could deliberately give away a PK to get back to 15 for those last few seconds.

If there was 71 on the clock when he went off, there's only 9 minutes playing-time left in the game and he isn't coming back because "last play" has multiple phases and takes up lots of time. If you want to take part in the "last play" be on the field at the start of it, or not at all. End of.

 

[crossref]

I think that never the twain shall meet. Touch and scrum infringements I see as suitable breaks in play, but not PK's.

but why not at a PK?
I mean ordinarily in a game, for example :
- if you award a PK to Red, and Red pause and say: can our YC player come back on now ... you'd say no?
- if you award a PK to Red and they say they are going for kick goal, wouldn't you use the next 30 seconds as an ideal moment to bring back any YC players who have done their time?


And we still have the original one I brought up
- you award a PK to Red and Red opt to take a scrum. So I think we agree on this scenario at least? this is a suitable break in play, and any YC players can return

 

[BigClothesSir]

but why not at a PK?
I mean ordinarily in a game, for example :
- if you award a PK to Red, and Red pause and say: can our YC player come back on now ... you'd say no?
- if you award a PK to Red and they say they are going for kick goal, wouldn't you use the next 30 seconds as an ideal moment to bring back any YC players who have done their time?

Correct. He can come back after the kick at goal or before any line-out. If the ball misses touch or doesn't end up dead, he'll have to wait a few more seconds (oh, no!). I like to have a quick word, just to remind them not to transgress again when they come back on, I sometimes can't do that at a PK.

And we still have the original one I brought up
- you award a PK to Red and Red opt to take a scrum. So I think we agree on this scenario at least? this is a suitable break in play, and any YC players can return

No, it's a scrum option from a PK. He ain't coming back.

It's encouraging the side with 14 to concede pens to get the player back on. He cannot return as he wasn't on the field when the "last play" phases began due to being in the bin.

 

[crossref]

well, shrug, I disagree with you on all of those, in each case I'd let YC players return..

But we're arguing about what is a suitable break in play, this isn't about the clock : each of these scenarios is either suitable break in play, or it's not.

It can't be suitable in the 28th minute, but unsuitable in the 82nd.

It's encouraging the side with 14 to concede pens to get the player back on.

Well again it's no different in the 30th minute from the 81st - but it doesn't work
1 - that sort of deliberate offending is likely to get you a second YC!
2 - when a PK is awarded to Blue, you certainly don't hold them up from taking it to allow a Red player back on ! We agree on that.

 

[crossref]

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[BigClothesSir]

It's not really. They can be opportunities to return if you insist

I'm saying he hasn't got any time to return. If he goes in the 71st minute I don't care what happens after that. There are only 9 minutes of playing-time remaining and therefore he cannot possibly come back, no matter what the circumstances.

Fin. As they say in French cinema.

 

[crossref]

It's not really. They can be opportunities to return if you insist

I'm saying he hasn't got any time to return. If he goes in the 71st minute I don't care what happens after that. There are only 9 minutes of playing-time remaining and therefore he cannot possibly come back, no matter what the circumstances.

Fin. As they say in French cinema.

well that really doesn't make sense.
once he's done his ten minutes, at the next suitable break in play, he's entitled to come back.

 

[BigClothesSir]

well that really doesn't make sense.
once he's done his ten minutes, at the next suitable break in play, he's entitled to come back.

That's my key point. I'm saying that once the 80 has elapsed there cannot be a suitable break for a binned player to come back.
Any break in play is part of the "last play" phase OR is the end of the game.

He's not entitled to be part of the "last play" as he was still in the bin at the start of it.

 

[didds]

Okay you award a PK.
But surely if the game is to restart with a scrum ( option) then the put-in is to "No side." Accompanied with a blast of the whistle and arm outstretched to the changing rooms?

scrum option at PK

didds

 

[ChrisR]

Or lineout following PK kick to touch?

 

[crossref]

That's my key point. I'm saying that once the 80 has elapsed there cannot be a suitable break for a binned player to come back..

but that's my key point: any scenario that amounts to a suitable break in play in the 28th minute is a suitable break in play in the 82nd minute [unless it causes the game to end of course] The Laws don't change at 80:01

 

[BigClothesSir]

but that's my key point: any scenario that amounts to a suitable break in play in the 28th minute is a suitable break in play in the 82nd minute [unless it causes the game to end of course] The Laws don't change at 80:01

It's "last-play". He has no right to be involved as he was sanctioned at the start.

 

[OB..]

He was off the field because of sanction when that phase of play began. Why should he be allowed to rejoin it half way through?

Haldfway through what? A scrum is a different phase because different laws apply.

Time has not expired but the 10 minutes YC playing time has. The laws do not cover the situation, so the referee has to make a decision.

However this is going to be pretty rare, so I doubt if most refs will ever have thought about it in advance.