[Law] 50/22 from a FK

[Balones]

Their opponent touched the ball, as they were going to put it into the scrum.

I asked my question before getting clarification. A scrum is a phase of play. 50/22 available and allowed.

 

[crossref]

There has been a phase of play in the red half. Offender not relevant. 50/22 available.

An uncompleted scrum means there "has been a phase of play" . That seems odd ??

What about blue kick into red half and it goes into touch
Red attempt a QTI but blue block the throw
FK to red, red kick it into blue 22 and bounces into touch

Is that also a phase of play ?

 

[Balones]

The scrum and lineout were awarded. They are phases of play. Both may be considered uncompleted but that doesn’t negate the fact that they were awarded in the first place.

 

[crossref]

The scrum and lineout were awarded. They are phases of play. Both may be considered uncompleted but that doesn’t negate the fact that they were awarded in the first place.

Ok so under that (unusual) definition of a phase of play then every FK in Red half follows a " phase" in the red half , so the two answers would be the same

(Balones your corresondent however must have had in mind a scenario of a FK that didn't follow a phase of play in the same half , I wonder what that scenario is ?)

 

[Camquin]

I think we are saying if the mark for the stoppage was in the defensive half, he 50/22 is on, until the ball crosses the halfway line.
You do not need to think about what happened before that.

But if the mark is one inch into the attacking half, it is off, until you are tackled in your own half or the ball is turned over.

 

[crossref]

Interesting. Red team pass back into their half. They knock on. They win FK at the scrum. (E.g. Early engagement.) Can Red tap/go and kick?The criteria required in law has not been met.

returning to that one --

Because a scrum was awarded, we are saying there has been a phase in play, right? and so in fact the criteria has been met and Red can take the FK into the blue 22, bounce it out, and throw in at the lineout

 

[didds]

So basically nobody knows

quelle surprise ....

 

[Balones]

returning to that one --

Because a scrum was awarded, we are saying there has been a phase in play, right? and so in fact the criteria has been met and Red can take the FK into the blue 22, bounce it out, and throw in at the lineout

I made my comment before I received my information from a higher source based on the GLT page/info on the WR website because scrums aren’t mentioned there. So the answer to your question is yes. I must admit that it doesn’t sit comfortably with me but I think that overall the intention of the law is to push the defence back and allow more room for running rugby and that has taken priority over what feels right. I have a feeling that this is not going to happen but rather sides are going to get better at kicking and exploiting this law. But then I do not have any data from pre-trial trials.

 

[chbg]

FFS, stop over-complicating it! Why do we not have these discussions about the 22 gain in ground?

The wording of the Law for BOTH is the same: "Either the team did not take the ball into their 22/half, or a tackle, ruck or maul took place within the half, or an opponent touched the ball within the 22/half."

For better clarity of the grammar: "Either the team did not take the ball into their 22/half, or if it did a tackle, ruck or maul took place within the half, or an opponent touched the ball within the 22/half."

For a scrum/line-out in your own half, someone sent the ball into that half: if the opposition, then from that moment on, regardless of circumstances, until the ball leaves the half a 50:22 is 'on'. If it was your own team e.g passing back, there are very limited and rare circumstances* for your own team to be awarded a FK, scrum or line-out without the opposition having touched or competed for the ball in open play. The 50:22 is 'on'.

*e.g. play stopped for injury, or the ball/BC having touched the referee resulting in an advantage, or other reason not covered in law. I am sure that you will be given leeway to make an equitable decision if any if these do occur.

 

[crossref]

I didn't overcomplicate, chbg !

My answer was 'yes' same as Michael Patz 's answer. Very simple, and exactly as you say.

balones contact muddied the waters when he answered "yes you can as long as there has been a phase of play in your half before"

which is troublesome if a scrum is awarded and never completed - does that count as phase of play ? balones explained it does count. Fair enough.

I think the correct answer is simply 'yes, you can always kick a FK for a 50/22'

 

[didds]

my 2p to maybe muddy the waters.

ISTR the silly wording about PKs having to NOT bounce into touch for retained throw in has been removed now?

ie any PK to touch, anywhere, retains the throw?

 

[Camquin]

Yes 18.8.c Ball kicked from a penalty now says "either directly or first bouncing in the field of play or hitting an opponent or the referee" kicking team takes throw.

 

[crossref]

my 2p to maybe muddy the waters.

ISTR the silly wording about PKs having to NOT bounce into touch for retained throw in has been removed now?

ie any PK to touch, anywhere, retains the throw?

that has always been the case, but the anomaly was on time, whether the game ends or not.
If time has expired it used to say that a PK had to be kicked 'directly' to touch to get the line out.

Now it says
[LAWS] half ends when the ball becomes dead after time has expired unless:
A penalty is kicked into touch without the ball first being tapped and without the ball touching another player [/LAWS]

So that's better (although still illiterate as if the PK has tapped, then it is open play, so it's no longer a PK to touch)

 

[didds]

Thanks CR - ISTR something about "directly" to touch to keep the throw which had some interpretation meaning not bouncing first but Im obviously confusing myself

 

[smeagol]

So, USAR put on a webinar going over the GLTs.

In a QnA following up on it, USAR indicates the answer is no, going against the answer provided within the webinar (which featured Angus Gardner).

source: http://assets.usarugby.org/docs/ref...ource=USA Rugby&dm_i=60LF,F5MS,4LYOGD,1LMC5,1

 

[crossref]

So, USAR put on a webinar going over the GLTs.

In a QnA following up on it, USAR indicates the answer is no, going against the answer provided within the webinar (which featured Angus Gardner).

source: http://assets.usarugby.org/docs/ref...ource=USA Rugby&dm_i=60LF,F5MS,4LYOGD,1LMC5,1

Love it
But actually the q&a says "yes" while the webinar said no

Here is a good link
.http://assets.usarugby.org/docs/refereeing/GLT-Webinar-Q&A-2021.pdf

 

[didds]

WTAF?


how do they manage to do this? Is this some bizarre US language thing akin to the "I could give a damn" when they actually mean the opposite?

 

[thepercy]

So, USAR put on a webinar going over the GLTs.

In a QnA following up on it, USAR indicates the answer is no, going against the answer provided within the webinar (which featured Angus Gardner).

source: http://assets.usarugby.org/docs/ref...ource=USA Rugby&dm_i=60LF,F5MS,4LYOGD,1LMC5,1

Opposite of that.

 

[thepercy]

WTAF?


how do they manage to do this? Is this some bizarre US language thing akin to the "I could give a damn" when they actually mean the opposite?

The explanation was that during the trials in parts of the SH, teams awarded a FK could not get the throw in after a 50/22, but when the wording of the GLT was released, there was no provision that disallowed it.

Any good reason why a FK would be exempted from 50/22?

The only situation I can think of where a team could carry/pass into their own half and unjustly gain the throw in at a 50/22 would be:

Red carried/passed into their half, there is a freak accident, inadvertent whistle, or dog runs on the pitch, no T/R/M or Blue touching the ball, scrum awarded to Red, Blue engage early, or otherwise violate 19.12.a-d, Red are awarded a FK, 50/22 is on?

 

[crossref]

The explanation was that during the trials in parts of the SH, teams awarded a FK could not get the throw in after a 50/22, but when the wording of the GLT was released, there was no provision that disallowed it.

Any good reason why a FK would be exempted from 50/22?

The only situation I can think of where a team could carry/pass into their own half and unjustly gain the throw in at a 50/22 would be:

Red carried/passed into their half, there is a freak accident, inadvertent whistle, or dog runs on the pitch, no T/R/M or Blue touching the ball, scrum awarded to Red, Blue engage early, or otherwise violate 19.12.a-d, Red are awarded a FK, 50/22 is on?

simpler than that - red pass back into own half, knock on, scrum, FK to red

Not sure about justly/unjustly though, I don't think there is an underlying logic here, else they wouldn't make mistakes, and we'd all be able to agree on what they meant