Complaining about a Ref

[crossref]

what sort of circumstances would cause you to officially, or semi-officially complain about a ref?

I am talking here about v low level games - junior level say - so ref from one of the clubs, and not a society appointment, but perhps a league game so it's important to the players.

Is the answer 'never'?

What's the protocol? to his club? to the society? to union? to competition organisers?

(NB I'm not planning on doing it!.. but watching what I thought was a very poor performance a few weeks ago made me think about this generally)

 

[Dixie]

Hi Crossref.

If it's just a matter of missing a load of technical offences, I'd say never. The guy has given up his time and done his best. We can assume that he wasn't given the task ahead of the myriad other (better) club refs queuing up behind him, and moaning about his performance may cause him to chuck it all in as not worth the hassle.

Hoiwever, if he's getting safety issues wrong, then the club's referee co-ordinator needs to be aware of it. A constructive letter of concern, appreciating the ref's commitment but pointing out the safety element (and only that), with suggestions for training, would be in order. But if, as a coach, you got through the game without deeming it sufficiently unsafe to remove your team from the field, then I think you just have to take the rough with the smooth.

 

[OB..]

We had a club ref who was very happy to take our 3rds, but refused to join the society because he assumed (though disabused by me several times) that he would have to accept society appointments. He made quite a lot of errors, technical, law, and management, but no safety problems. He wasn't too keen on informal advice either, so I left him alone.

I think it was a confidence issue, since after a couple of years, he did join the society, and immediately improved greatly as a consequence of the advice and training. He then moved from accepting the occasional appointment to doing so regularly, and thoroughly enjoyed it.

 

[Donal1988]

Cross Ref - i would say that there is a time and place. You seem to be talking about a game with no society referee and where a coach takes up the whistle for a competitve fixture and there is a perceived bias rather than an ignorance of safety.

I would suggest the once bitten twice shy maxim is the best advice. It can be very hard to prove the scenario you are describing and unless player safety is an issue it is unlikely i would imagine that a non Society or club referee could come under the microscope too much. If this has happened in the past the best thing to do is not let it happen again. Find a mate willing to ref these or as some junior clubs here do arrange it with coach to referee a half each.

 

[andyscott]

I would complain about them all the time

Most of the time I played, the referee gave the opposition everything

Now I am a referee, referees are down the middle everytime

 

[Simon Thomas]

whoever appointed the referee (IRB, RFU, Group, Federation, Society or Club) - so in this case club.

depends on who you are - club chairman, committee man, coach, player etc or just a spectator.

there are casual comments, unofficial words and formal official channels that can be used

being at the receiving end of a few club's Society Referee complaints, to respond effectively I am looking for evidence and facts of specific errors in law or safety, before even thinking about discussing it with our referee. Broad statements like 'he missed offsdies' or he allowed hands in at ruck are not good enough

for a very low level junior referee, unless he is totally unsafe I would suggest a pro-active 'complaint' about his techniques. He is a volunteer club ref and needs constructive encouragement.

 

[Tarwmawr]

I have always assumed that the senior referee society executives throughout the country would have a tendency to make enquiries of club officials, especially in the early days of a referee's development, to gauge how they have "performed". I know from later conversations I've had with these club officials they have made references to these "unofficial" conversations.
With such in mind I had assumed that any concerns or general complaints would be given to the Society Committee.
Is this the general way of the world or am I way off the mark?

 

[GeorgeR]

Speaking as a fairly inexperienced referee... (just working towards my ELRA 3) I miss things through lack of experience/positioning etc. Last season I just did club matches at M and J Level. The stick I had from my son's age group management and 1 or 2 other coaches (i was an assistant coach myself) was at times disgraceful. I like to think that I rarely missed safety related issues, and that they were in the main technical issues (usually offside etc). They expected you t do a course and then be able to pick up everything. ( We are now at another club where they are grateful for any support). My club had a number of referees, but no formal feedback loop for new referees or indeed existing referees. Having joined my local society at the end of last season, the positive feedback and training is superb. The difference between constructive and destructive criticism is huge. I would always recommend approaching it constructively so that the lessons learnt can be used positively for all concerned.

 

[Ian_Cook]

Reasons for complaints against referees

Safety
An absolute must. Any referee who ignores safety issues, e.g. allowing advantage after collapsed scrums.

Consistency
A referee who makes the same "mistakes" against both sides no problem, but one who consistently makse the same incorrect rulings against, or allows illegalities by, one team and not the other, is going to cop a serve from me....officially of course

Fitness
An unfit referee who cannot keep up with the play.

 

[Simon Thomas]

I have always assumed that the senior referee society executives throughout the country would have a tendency to make enquiries of club officials, especially in the early days of a referee's development, to gauge how they have "performed". I know from later conversations I've had with these club officials they have made references to these "unofficial" conversations.
With such in mind I had assumed that any concerns or general complaints would be given to the Society Committee.
Is this the general way of the world or am I way off the mark?

Correct, and a lot more too at Society levels. Skippers feedback cards, Society Committee guys popping in for a chat on their way home from elsewhere, commuter journey (I get a Monday report on whoever did my home club by the Rugby Club's chairman on the train), pub chats, training night chats, phone calls, sometimes emails etc. Some are complaints but we also get positive feedback too - young so-and-so is a good prospect, or great to see old-person reffing at last, he did well with our seconds.

As the RFU develops the CRC (Club Referee Coordinator) and CRefDev (Club Referee Developer) programme this season, club refs will have an opportunity to get more regular structured training and advice.

Ian Cook raised one point not covered by others - fitness. At Society level I have had to 'stand down' two referees who were overweight and unable to run well enough to keep up with the slowest match. One has retired, the other lost over 3 stone in the summer and is now back reffing (I got a thank you email from his wife !). Holding my own hand up too (with an expanded girth) , I have seen our general Society Referee fitness appear to decline overall in the last few seasons.

 

[Dixie]

Reasons for complaints against referees:
...
Fitness
An unfit referee who cannot keep up with the play.

Are you advising Sir Alex Ferguson?

 

[Andyp]

So taking all the comments on board so far, how would you want a coach to approach a referee during a game over safety concerns. Is it acceptable when the ball goes dead to just walk onto the pitch and request time out for a conversation. I don't want to make things worse on the pitch but I do want to look after the players.

 

[dave_clark]

safety is first priority. if you think it's unsafe for the match to continue, get the players off the field in any way you can. calling them over, and then approaching the ref to advise the decision is probably the easiest way to do so. if both coaches do it simultaneously, it's easier.

i'd suggest that it's nigh on impossible for this action to be taken without anyone taking things personally (either the ref or the coach, if a slanging match breaks out). should this happen, i would expect some sort of report to go in and the coach to be called to at the very least a club disciplinary hearing. at this, i personally would back any of my coaches who removed their players for safety reasons as long as they can qualify EXACTLY why they felt it to be unsafe to continue.

 

[Dixie]

I don't feel there's a discussion to be had with the ref. Anything along the lines of "it's not been sfge so far, but I'm looking at you to raise your game to acceptable levels or I'm pulling my boys off" is a coaching cop-out. Surely the coach is equally responsible for any injury at the collapse of the next scrum.

So there is only the nuclear option; it's either safe (continue) or not (stop immediately). If you opt for the second option, just get on there and explain matters to the ref, trying your best to do so in a non-confrontational way. Then get your boys to cheer the opposition and thank the ref for his time.

 

[Greg Collins]

Fitness and capability wise; one of the problems is a perception in some parts that youth rugby of a Sunday morning is somehow a soft option compared with that on a Saturday afternoon. I'm assuming the vast bulk of English society members are double digit refs, in reality if not on paper i.e. even if they are completely entitled to hold on to their single digit grading from n years ago.

Maybe my experience is atypical but from all angles, but especially fitness wise, the games at L12/L11 (and the very rare L10) I do on Saturday are a cakewalk compared with the games I do on a Sunday morning from U15 up.

 

[SimonSmith]

I tend to agree with Greg, based on my experiences in Hampshire just before I left.

I steadfastly refused to do anything younger than U16 - a large part of that was my management style would not work well lower down the age groups.

The challenges of youth rugby are very different to adult rugby - you could almost call it a specialized skill set. I was a B2 back then, and could still find the odd Colts games (yes, Basingstoke, that means you) a stretch on Sunday mornings. Hell of a learning curve as well. I would definitively NOT have gotten up as quickly as I did without access to those games.

 

[Waynepipmad]

what sort of circumstances would cause you to officially, or semi-officially complain about a ref?

I am talking here about v low level games - junior level say - so ref from one of the clubs, and not a society appointment, but perhps a league game so it's important to the players.

Is the answer 'never'?

What's the protocol? to his club? to the society? to union? to competition organisers?

(NB I'm not planning on doing it!.. but watching what I thought was a very poor performance a few weeks ago made me think about this generally)

You could always use the tactic that the Coaches from a Welsh Premiership side did on Saturday, and approach the Ref and Asst Refs after the game and ask if they could join us for a meal, sit between the Ref, Asst Refs and the Assessor and absolutley slaughter their performance during the game!

 

[Greg Collins]

I tend to agree with Greg, based on my experiences in Hampshire just before I left....I would definitively NOT have gotten up as quickly as I did without access to those games.

Fecked if I know what I'm doing wrong then

There is no substitute for aptitude!

 

[backrow]

I tend to agree with Greg, based on my experiences in Hampshire just before I left.

I steadfastly refused to do anything younger than U16 - a large part of that was my management style would not work well lower down the age groups.

The challenges of youth rugby are very different to adult rugby - you could almost call it a specialized skill set. I was a B2 back then, and could still find the odd Colts games (yes, Basingstoke, that means you) a stretch on Sunday mornings. Hell of a learning curve as well. I would definitively NOT have gotten up as quickly as I did without access to those games.

Cant agree about not doing anything below U16, amend your management style, also it will keep the coaches quite if an experienced ref is in charge.

The hardest games I reffed were U16, full of testosterone, never wanting to take a backward step, wanting to impress girlfriend, and worst of all they knew a bit about the game, but a great challenge.

Before I retired due to injury last season I would do any game for my club from U13 - senior colts if requested, just changed the way I managed the game to allow for lack of skill, experience, bit like doing L8 game one week then L10 the next.

 

[SimonSmith]

I took the approach that Saturday was my "professional" refereeing day, where management would have to flex.
Sundays was a freebie, so I was entitled to exercise a little bit of pick 'n choose as to the games I was going to do. I simply didn't enjoy refereeing U15 and below, and I wasn't going to travel to do something I didn't enjoy.