Complaining about a Ref

[crammond1964]

BE CAREFUL as society does protect their referees . I was brave enough to question a society and was hastily removed without a hearing or a warning as a referee ! And sadly cannot contest the decision

 

[Jacko]

Holding my own hand up too (with an expanded girth) , I have seen our general Society Referee fitness appear to decline overall in the last few seasons.

Get yourself up to South Yorkshire Simon. We'll soon have you whipped into shape with a few Thursday night training sessions!

 

[Simon Thomas]

Get yourself up to South Yorkshire Simon. We'll soon have you whipped into shape with a few Thursday night training sessions!

WTF - I sent that on 7th October 2009.

Since then I have followed a strict fitness regime, and can say with confidence that over 10 yards I would leave Keith Page and Jon Dance standing.

In defence of the Hampshire lads they were impressive at pre-season fitness YO-YO tests this year (2014), especially Keith Lewis (KML1) who turned the sound on and off, and noted down the finishers so well, as we would expect from a TMO.

I had an inside fitness session with the Match Observers / Referee Coaches :biggrin:

 

[Pegleg]

Interesting thread.

Couple of points:

1; Here all appointments to Youth and above are done via the WRU refs department. Each society has an appointment officer who appoints the old district stuff. The WRU leagues are appointed via the WRU office I believe.

2; Level one refs (Usually not society members) can only referee mini and juniors unless they are taking their Level 2 course and then it is strictly controlled (as these will be society members).

3; League games will always be appointed, we don't have M& J leagues. The ref will always be neutral.

This helps to avoid the question of bias.

All that said, if you have an issue then of course it should be addressed. I guess it depends how serious the issue is. Assuming there is not a safety concern ( consider abandoning the game in such cases - Making sure you are on very sure ground. and you have evidence for any subsequent hearing). Then a chat in the bar with the ref once he's had his "personal time" after the game. Keep it calm and non confrontational. Depending on how that goes you consider the next step. The club if its a non society game (M & J in Wales) or the society if a senior / youth game. I think Simon's point about proper evidence etc is spot on. vague comments about offside etc don't cut it.

If you are going to make it formal ensure you have a good case.

 

[crossref]

it's a very OLD thread - excactly five years old!

 

[Jacko]

WTF - I sent that on 7th October 2009.

My bad - didn't notice it was a resurrected thread!

 

[Phil E]

My bad - didn't notice it was a resurrected thread!

Doesn't make your point any less valid :biggrin:

 

[didds]

agree generally with the "not a safety issue" lines... but there is always the potential that (rightly or wrongly) lots of technical errors may lead to players frustration which boils over into "if the ref won't sort them out I will"... which now creates safety issues.

didds

 

[Pegleg]

Doesn't make your point any less valid :biggrin:

Indeed first time I've seen it and there are some interesting issues here.

- - - Updated - - -

agree generally with the "not a safety issue" lines... but there is always the potential that (rightly or wrongly) lots of technical errors may lead to players frustration which boils over into "if the ref won't sort them out I will"... which now creates safety issues.

didds

Indeed how many times have we seen a game spiral out of control because of that perception?

 

[ChrisR]

Generally, if I have a comment it gets said only to the referee and, hopefully, in a constructive way and taken as such.

Only lodged a formal complaint twice. In both cases poor application of law and very bad game management exasperated by unbridled arrogance.

 

[TheBFG]

Seems like a good place to bring this up.......

I understand that there has been an "upgrade" to the 'Who's the Ref' (WTR) and that captains can leave feedback on the ref :chin: what are your thoughts on this???

Wonder if refs are able to leave feedback on teams too :knuppel2:

 

[crossref]

Seems like a good place to bring this up.......

I understand that there has been an "upgrade" to the 'Who's the Ref' (WTR) and that captains can leave feedback on the ref :chin: what are your thoughts on this???

Wonder if refs are able to leave feedback on teams too :knuppel2:

in LSRFUR we already have feedback cards that we give to captains to collect feedback. they can either fill them in there and then and give them back to the ref or (if they want to be nasty :wink they take them away and post them back.

I am not sure how much attention is paid to any individual card: as I understand it they are really look for themes that come up across games.

Some refs give them out assiduously, other refs never give them out. I suppose it depends on a number of factors - the stage in your reffing career, how often you are being watched (if you have an assessor/coach watching every game then the cards are a bit superfluous), whether you are trying to advance, etc, etc..

I think if you switched to electronic feedback, that the captain had to log on to a system to give, then I suspect we'd see the Tripadvisor effect - only captians with very negative views would make the effort to that on a Sunday morning.

 

[menace]

I think if you switched to electronic feedback, that the captain had to log on to a system to give, then I suspect we'd see the Tripadvisor effect - only captians with very negative views would make the effort to that on a Sunday morning.

That's an interesting perception. Don't suppose anyone out there has such an electrinic feedback system and can provide some evidence whether that feedback is skewed to the negative responses?

 

[crossref]

Menace you are quite right, my hypothesis could be tested.
The counter argument to my claim that next day, electronic feedback would be skewed negative, is that asking for a card to be filled in there and then, in person, generates articificially positive feedback, as it's hard for a captain to be critical in about a ref face to face, in person.

Interesting.

 

[menace]

Agree.

The reason I ask is that I'd like our association to set up a feedback system and I would have thought a simple electronic collection (no login though) might be more convenient and give time for captains to calm down and provide less emotional feedback? But you make a good point.

As a junior referee coordinator last year for my association I implemented a pilot online system of collecting feedback on junior referees from the coaches a season ago, but only to selected clubs. The feedback was both sides of the coin, but the sample was too small to assess its efficacy, and my successor didn't follow it up this year.
I think feedback from capt is better option ( but would still value coaches input too)

Hoping someone out there has electronic collection and can provide some comments.

 

[crossref]

A big factor to consider is response rates.
One advantage of cards is that if you give a captain a card you get a close to 100% rate .. I have never had a captain actually decline, but occasionally they will "take it away to do later" in which case it very rarely is seen again.

If the system was online , that would mean next day, and I am sure response rate would be much much smaller.

 

[pwhaling]

My society uses a form on our website:
http://nysrrs.net/feedback.html

When it is completed a copy gets emailed to the chair and vice chair. We use whos the ref for appointments, so there is a link at the bottom of the appointment email that the coaches get saying:

Let us know how we did. Please take a moment to fill out the Coaches Feedback form at: http://nysrrs.net/feedback.html

We don't get a lot of feedback but it's cheap (actually free) and simple.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Seems like a good place to bring this up.......

I understand that there has been an "upgrade" to the 'Who's the Ref' (WTR) and that captains can leave feedback on the ref :chin: what are your thoughts on this???

Wonder if refs are able to leave feedback on teams too :knuppel2:

Yes indeed WTR has a beta test android (not IOS version yet) app for smartphones which we are testing. This is an extra service from WTR and is a chargeable item - like Advisor Forms, Discipline Forms, Expenses, Club Match Fees - on top of the license fees for the various modules and services on WTR.

Hampshire Society has been working with Mark at WTR over the summer on this, as we wanted to give a digital option for the Captains' Referee Feedback cards to save on our postage costs, have the data automatically input to a database with the match, score and referee. Currently I spend hours loading the printed cards info onto Excel spreadsheets.

The MO / Coaching Form 1 and Form 2 can be completed online on WTR and linked to the specific match and referee. For this Referee Feedback Card service we and WTR saw online (later or next day by skipper who has to sign on to WTR) as not an option for the reasons crossref gives, so it is a smartphone app. The app card is added to the match and referee records on WTR giving a summary or detail view for Appointers, Referee Coaches, Training Officer and Grading Committee.

We expect all of our referees to offer Referee match feedback cards to the skippers and we do use them to support referee development, identify trends, get skipper feedback, etc. This has been done for many years and most (90% +) of cards are completed in a sensible and honest way by skippers or coaches.

Now they will have an app version or usual printed card to offer skippers in the clubhouse, so no negative or positive skews.

The WTR Referee Match Card app is an electronic version on the ref's smartphone, which the ref hands to the skipper as he would do with a card, the skipper fills it in and saves it, closing the app. The app is then locked for one hour before the ref can see it. The data is sync'd to WTR againstble match and referee with all the usual security.

We have already discussed the idea of doing the same for the Club Facilities card (which contributes to the Best Club Whistler Award) re welcome,hospitality, first aid facilities, etc.

 

[crossref]

That's very interesting, Simon , keep us up to date with the results

I like the idea of linking the feedback to the score, that's a problem in our society process, as we don't record scores in easyref but the marks on the cards are consistently better from the winning team

Our feedback marks are loaded up to easyref though , where the refs can see them. Not into spreadsheets .

I don't like the idea of having to hand my phone to a captain. It raises privacy issues on both sides, I don't want my phone in the hands of a group of bantering rugby players, and the capt probably doesn't want me hovering close , keeping phone in sight.

But testing will tell

 

[Simon Thomas]

I have happy memories of filling in London Society cards at various stags of my playing career.

Three specific incidents come to mind :

1. At a Vets match in Weybridge a portly London Society referee was somewhat aggressive when I awarded him E for keeping up with game and for his use of advantage. In answer to his question of why I had gibes him Es I said "because old boy there is not an F" - his stony face, and much laughter around summed it up nicely.

2. A regular London referee we had at the Old Boys did not offer cards, and was a very arrogant guy, plus not a very good referee for that level 6 / 7 ish. After another poor performance, I asked him for a card which took some time to be offered, and only after I told him he would no get his travel expenses until I had it.

3. A well known "Bon viveur" had stayed with us after a good win and after far too many beers and ports presented his feedback card - I was incapable of writing on it and he incapable of reading it, so we got the batman to full it in with straight As.