Fifty point differential

[Na Madrai]

I hope that someone can point me in the right direction.

I regularly referee at U19 level. Up to now, when a team has secured a lead in excess of 50 points, I have always asked the losing coach if he wants his team to play on and have abided with his decision.

However, my newly qualified lawyer neice has pointed out that if the RU state that a match much not continue beyond this point I may be on thin ice.

Could anyone, therefore, point me in the direction of where I can find the exact wording, please?

Many thanks

NM

 

[Donal1988]

An Irish speaker?? Na Madrai = The Dogs!

Welcome to the forum by the way. For what its worth I did a thesis about the legal liability by referees. You will never be sued for failing to blow for full time because of a 50 point lead.

 

[Simon Thomas]

It is in the rules of the Daily Mail Cup and also some youth competitions, but I have never come across an U19 League that says that. Maybe at U15 or U14.

 

[PaulDG]

However, my newly qualified lawyer neice has pointed out that if the RU state that a match much not continue beyond this point I may be on thin ice.

Could anyone, therefore, point me in the direction of where I can find the exact wording, please?

The RFU junior regulations (unlike the Continuum for U12s and down) do not specify any limit on score difference.

Some [most?] junior leagues give a limit. Generally around 50 points (one local league round here has a 45 point limit).

Matches don't have to stop (though that may be in the best interest of all), but the leagues wont record scores that have a bigger than the limit difference - they cut the difference down.

 

[L'irlandais]

An Irish speaker?? Na Madraí = The Dogs!...

Perhaps this member is of Fijian decent ; then Na Madrai = the bread. (Btw, NM, do forgive us if we're discussing your real name like this.)

 

[Davet]

If Cu Chulain is the hound of Chulain doesn't that make Cu = dog / hound or are they wholy separate words in Gaelic as well?

 

[Donal1988]

They are separate words in Ireland. Madra is dog.

 

[L'irlandais]

If Cu Chulain is the hound of Chulain doesn't that make Cu = dog / hound or are they wholy separate words in Gaelic as well?

Donal's quite right. Interestingly hunting with (wolf/deer)hounds was a pastime only for Royals in medieval Ireland.

 

[crossref]

Herts Middx league : U13-colts, when the match reaches 45 difference the score is recorded, and that is the official score. The game can optionally continue, if both teams want to, but any further scores don't count toward the official result.
If the losing team is willing to play on, it is customary for the winning team to perhaps rest some of their star players..

league rules here
http://www.hertsmiddxleagues.co.uk/

 

[Dixie]

They are separate words in Ireland. Madra is dog.

I wonder how many Gaelic speakers order a Meat Madras at their local Indian restaurant?

So Na Madrai, let me reiterate the welcome you've already received and confirm (as others have said) that the RFU does NOT impose a points limit at U.19. When my son was playing U.14, the Berkshire youth league decided a tie for top spot by points difference. One of the three best sides beat the weakest team by 100-0. Thereafter, all other teams with title pretentions had to aim for a three-figure score against that opposition. There were three teams that season who scored more than 100 points against that team, and the organising committee lost no time in changing the rules so that there was no advantage to giving a thrashing. But they didn't impose a points limit - though they could have done.

 

[dave_clark]

how does that work?

 

[B52 REF]

Na Madrai- is that you Niamh??/ welcome whoever you are,

 

[Dixie]

how does that work?

It stimulates the part of the brain known as Shatner's Bassoon. :biggrin:

You've guessed that being part of the RFU, it was not perfectly achieved. The first part was good:

5.2 In the case of equal number of League points accumulated, positions between clubs will be determined according to the result(s) of the match(es) between the clubs, with the club with the highest number of League points (including bonus points) from these matches being placed highest in the League.

Thus, the issue is resolved unless the top clubs drew. It should then have gone on to say that if a tie still exists (as is quite likely in the event of a drawn game), then the team that scores most 4-try bonuses wins; thereafter, the team that scores the most losing bonus points wins; if none of the above, the cup is shared.


Ideally, the tie-break provision would make no reference to points difference. Once you've got your win and four-try bonus, there should be no value in piling on the agony. Indeed, the ref should be able to stop the game at that point on mercy grounds without in any way affecting the league (though he does not have to).

What we actually have is secondary, tertiary and subsequent criteria that still encourage the hammering of weaker sides. These are:

5.3 If a tie remains after applying 5.2 the clubs will be placed in the League according to which has the highest match points difference. Match points difference is the difference between cumulative match points for and cumulative match points against.

5.4 If a tie remains after applying 5.3 then the club with the highest total match points scored will be placed highest in the League.

5.5 If a tie remains after applying 5.4 then the club with the highest tries scored will be placed highest in the League.

5.6 If after the above it is still not possible to establish the position of the clubs, and even if the winning of the League is involved, then a tied position will be declared.

 

[scrumpox2]

It is in the rules of the Daily Mail Cup and also some youth competitions, but I have never come across an U19 League that says that. Maybe at U15 or U14.

http://www.hampshirerugby.co.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=266&Itemid=57

Hampshire Youth Competition Rules (May 2009) Regulation 4306

NEW REGULATION4 Once a 50 margin is reached in any junior county competition as covered by the YMCG the game should end at that point. Sides may continue to play BUT within the proviso that the result stands at 50 and the sides should look to play as friendly the final time allowed if both sides agree.

 

[Na Madrai]

Many, many thanks for your help in this matter, I can assume that this rule is relevant only in specific competitions, leagues etc. and is not actually in the laws of the game.

Na Madrai is the touring name of The Birmingham Irish RC - alas, our tours are now more golf orientated than rugby although we endeavour to attend all Irish home matches - which was established in 1987 out of The Spotted Dog public house, hence The Dogs or Na Madrai !!!!!!!

Once again, many thanks.

NM

 

[Ray TR]

Perhaps it isnt proper but as a ref often doing 4 youth/junior games in a week I have always found that a quiet word with the superior sides coach elicits an agreement to make his side work harder for their points properly within the laws of the game. This benefits them in harder games or at a higher level. I even had it in an U18 girls/ladies game on sunday. It is to the coaches credit that they 100% agree. I expect I am about to get shot down now, but my priority as a junior game ref, after safety, is to keep all thirty players wanting to stay in our game.

 

[Andyp]

Ray TR - wondering what working harder for your points means?

 

[L'irlandais]

Ray TR,
I agree. Safety first. Without loosing sight of the fact most kids are there for the pleasure of playing.

Ray TR - wondering what working harder for your points means?

Andyp, my take on that comment is this :
The "50-point" rule exists to ensure that the weaker teams don't get disheartened ; however lets not penalise the stronger side for taking their rugby seriously. That's to say, it's no fun for keen rugby players to have to go sit on the bench, just because the opposition is unable to field a decent team. Perhaps the weaker sides are getting thrashed because they don't train together, or they don't train at all. The matter should be taken up with their "coach".

...Na Madrai is the touring name of The Birmingham Irish RC...

Nice one Na Madraí,
By the way, don't forget the fada over the "i", (más é do thoil é) Otherwise folks will mix ye up with that lot for whom Rugby is almost a religion, as they also use "na madrai" in their local speak.

 

[Davet]

Donal's quite right. Interestingly hunting with (wolf/deer)hounds was a pastime only for Royals in medieval Ireland.

Off the point agaion - but Chulain was a blacksmith - hardly royalty.

Cu Chulain was the name taken by Setanta (son of the god Lugh) who took the place of the blacksmith's dog after killing it.

 

[L'irlandais]

Off the point agaion - but Chulain was a blacksmith - hardly royalty...

Evenin' Dave,
Well, it's a long story, best make mine a pint. Cheers!

You're right about, Cú Chulainn being called Setanta before he killed the Blacksmith's hound.
(And like you say, being a mythological character Setanta was the son of a God & the King of Ulster's sister.)

The Blacksmith was an important part of the Royal court ; forging chain-mail 'n body armour, horse-shoes, iron rims for wheels of war-chariots as well as aiding other craftsmen cast fine jewelery for the Royals. The forge for practial reasons* was located away from the Royal household, which is why he had a guard-hound. Perhaps the Blacksmith didn't really exist outside the story. If such a blacksmith did exist, then he was very honoured to be allowed keep the hound.
*One such reason - Blacksmith forged ploughshares for peasants, as a side line business.

I suspect the King, liked the social status of having a pack of hounds, but was happy for some "low-life" to look after them in his hilltop farm/forge. The good thing about being King way back then was the rules could be bent or broken to suit himself. Only the King could hunt large game, such as stags. The King to had also the responsiblity to protect his people from wolves. These big "dogs" were bred for the job on hand, & subsequently became a social status to keep such fine beasts. Don't forget Irish Wolfhounds were much sought after by Royal courts all over Europe back then. From that time on it were forbidden for commoners to raise hounds. Punished by death. (Because, although they had the whistle, nobody hadn't invented the card system as yet. :norc: )

End of highjack.