Footage of Leicester v Northampton red cards??

Status
Not open for further replies.

dave_clark


Referees in England
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,647
Post Likes
104
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
If you don't think that's a red card then, wow... Just wow. You must be joking right?

ok, to be clear. i don't think that the hair pulling was worthy of a red card. as such, i don't think that he will be both cited and banned.

(disclaimer put in, as it wouldn't overly surprise me if he is cited but not banned).

if the citing people disagree, and he does cop a ban, i will gladly reconsider my stance (as many people are now doing with the tip tackles).
 

MattyP


Referees in America
Joined
Mar 16, 2011
Messages
77
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Level 1
ok, to be clear. i don't think that the hair pulling was worthy of a red card. as such, i don't think that he will be both cited and banned.

(disclaimer put in, as it wouldn't overly surprise me if he is cited but not banned).

if the citing people disagree, and he does cop a ban, i will gladly reconsider my stance (as many people are now doing with the tip tackles).

So your position is that it's not a red card and that he won't be cited or banned, but just in case, you think he may be cited and if he is banned you're saying that wouldn't surprise you, in which case you'll retrospectively reconsider? Way to sit on the fence!!!

For the record - my view is that dragging a player by the hair is extremely nasty, and kicked off a nasty incident involving both teams, and Ashton should have (and I think would have, if WB had seen it, assuming he didn't because he didn't mention it in his excellent summation of what he saw) been on the end of a red card. I'm not sure if he will be cited - those folks move in mysterious ways - but I sure as hell hope so. Punish the nigglers (although dragging by the hair is "extreme" niggling) and you prevent incidents that kick off as a result.
 

Toby Warren


Referees in England
Joined
Nov 8, 2007
Messages
3,431
Post Likes
57
To be fair there are 7 votes for Red 7 for yellow and 3for PK only at this stage - Looks like the forum is sitting on the fence!
 

dave_clark


Referees in England
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,647
Post Likes
104
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
So your position is that it's not a red card and that he won't be cited or banned, but just in case, you think he may be cited and if he is banned you're saying that wouldn't surprise you, in which case you'll retrospectively reconsider? Way to sit on the fence!!!

damn right, but perhaps i should have put it better. at first thought i wouldn't think it worthy of a straight red, but i'm not arrogant enough to say that my way is the only way and that there is no way that i'm wrong :biggrin:.
 

Drift


Referees in Australia
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Messages
1,846
Post Likes
114
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
ok, ignoring the fact that i'm retired due to a back condition, that's getting awfully close to a personal attack...

Personally I thought it was a fair point. If you think dragging someone by their hair is acceptable for rugby then I would, as a player, feel better if you weren't refereeing.
 

dave_clark


Referees in England
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,647
Post Likes
104
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
not entirely sure where the suggestion i thought it acceptable came from... penalty offence no doubt, and a yellow card would not have been unreasonable. imho.
 

Mat 04


Referees in Wales
Joined
Mar 22, 2005
Messages
906
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
not entirely sure where the suggestion i thought it acceptable came from... penalty offence no doubt, and a yellow card would not have been unreasonable. imho.

Unreasonable?? It would be a damned travesty! Dragging an opponent along the ground by his or her hair is absolutely abhorrent and has no place whatsoever in this game.
 

Ricardowensleydale

Player or Coach
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
Messages
413
Post Likes
20
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
Unreasonable?? It would be a damned travesty! Dragging an opponent along the ground by his or her hair is absolutely abhorrent and has no place whatsoever in this game.

Hear! Hear!

It's interesting to recall the Warburton incident in conjunction with this one. A lot of players were unconvinced that a straight red was right for that tip tackle wheras nearly all the refs were happy it was right. With dragging along by the hair most players see this as wholly unacceptable behaviour but half the refs only see it as a YC.
Perhaps current players are less happy with sneaky, underhand thuggery than violent, dangerous upfront thuggery.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong, just thought it an interesting observation.
 

Scarlet Al


Referees in Wales
Joined
Jun 11, 2008
Messages
620
Post Likes
0
Current Referee grade:
Select Grade
not entirely sure where the suggestion i thought it acceptable came from... penalty offence no doubt, and a yellow card would not have been unreasonable. imho.

Bloody hell, the suggestion comes from the fact that you wouldn't issue a RC for it. There are some things in refereeing which are a case of individual interpretation, I'd be disturbed to think that you wouldn't issue a RC for that, for the players sake.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Good, Hope he gets a suspension just as long as Tuilagi's, if not longer.

Well I hope so too, because I don't think Tuilagi will be suspended. I still think he was wrongly carded.
 

Robert Burns

, Referees in Canada, RugbyRefs.com Webmaster
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
9,650
Post Likes
7
I notice the footage has been pulled.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
new link on Rugby dump

http://www.rugbydump.com/2011/12/22...om-wood-red-carded-following-touchline-brawl-

feel a little sorry for the ball boy stuck in there too!


Now I've just seen a bit which I missed before

Wayne Barnes said to the Leicester Captain.

"This player (pointing to Tuilagi) punching several times to the head (of) white 14"

Now sorry all you WB sycophants, but this is complete bullshit! There is no way on God's Green Earth that Tuilagi punched Ashton several times in the head.
 

TheBFG


Referees in England
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Messages
4,392
Post Likes
237
Current Referee grade:
Level 6
Now I've just seen a bit which I missed before

Wayne Barnes said to the Leicester Captain.

"This player (pointing to Tuilagi) punching several times to the head (of) white 14"

Now sorry all you WB sycophants, but this is complete bullshit! There is no way on God's Green Earth that Tuilagi punched Ashton several times in the head.

I agree, Laws throws as many (white 4) as does green 15!
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
Ian you are entitled to your opinions, based on a series video replays, but I disagree with both your interpretation of the event and views on WB's post incident management of the player separation, AR consultation and players' dismissals.

In real time from the comfort of may armchair, I saw the same as WB and what appeared to be punches by Tuilagi), plus I saw Ashton with his hands and arms head high on Tuilangi when he made the initial tackle. On the replays it then became obvious he had grasped his hair too - and Citing Officer Mike Rafter saw the same (a man I respect as an ex-England open side and highly experienced player from the days of much more on-pitch skullduggery - he gave me a good shoeing in the Bristol v Quins match in 1979 !).

WB is a full time experienced professional referee and had a good view of the incident at pitch level after the intial 10.4 offence by Ashton, which he was unsighted for.

Perhaps the Disciplinary Panel (who will have the same video evidence s well as the match officials reports) will decide Tuilangi sending off sufficient, although I doubt it.

As for Ashton - Red Card offence all the way, and if seen by WB pretty sure he would have not hesitated. I think his AR let him down and should have been focused on the contact area and so seen the hair pull.
 

Ian_Cook


Referees in New Zealand
Staff member
Joined
Jul 12, 2005
Messages
13,680
Post Likes
1,760
Current Referee grade:
Level 2
Ian you are entitled to your opinions, based on a series video replays, but I disagree with both your interpretation of the event and views on WB's post incident management of the player separation, AR consultation and players' dismissals.

In real time from the comfort of may armchair, I saw the same as WB and what appeared to be punches by Tuilagi), plus I saw Ashton with his hands and arms head high on Tuilangi when he made the initial tackle. On the replays it then became obvious he had grasped his hair too - and Citing Officer Mike Rafter saw the same (a man I respect as an ex-England open side and highly experienced player from the days of much more on-pitch skullduggery - he gave me a good shoeing in the Bristol v Quins match in 1979 !).

Simon, I don't know where you are seeing punches by Tuilagi. Even at full speed, I can't see any punches at all, just ONE, and only ONE hard push.

After that initial contact, Tuilagi's arms are trapped above Ashton's back, where they remain in full and clear view of the overhead camera at all times, until he is pulled away from the melee.

How WB manages to get "numerous" and "several" punches from that scenario is a complete mystery to me.
 

Account Deleted

Facebook Member
Joined
Feb 10, 2004
Messages
4,089
Post Likes
1
Ian we all, EXCEPT YOU, saw Tuilagi throw more than one punch at Ashton. His inability to punch properly meant he missed. Why do you think other refs on here saw the punches where as you (a NZ'der) did not?


I can think of 2007 O(and a quarter) reasons why that might be were you not a referee. But as a ref I know that you'd not stoop to that.
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
Simon, I don't know where you are seeing punches by Tuilagi. Even at full speed, I can't see any punches at all, just ONE, and only ONE hard push. [/QUOTE]

My point is that WB perceived he saw punches from Tuilangi, he is the referee and that is what he gave.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top