Is the Bunker working?

BikingBud


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Aside from the consistency and accuracy of the decisions, I'm trying not to go there again as other instances will surely arise but I was prompted by @crossref to consider the time the Bunker was taking for decisions, my thoughts on the Eng v Arg game, TV time is UK ITV:

Screenshot 2023-09-13 at 18.48.35.png

I could pick up discussion around 18:54 game time but as usual pundits were blathering and we did not get the explanation.

From World Rugby
Screenshot 2023-09-13 at 10.13.43.png
Are the captions on TV based upon 10 mins for Bunker decision, ie they have not seen the video above. Is the ref getting the message within the 8 mins, and advising at the next suitable moment, ie breakdown, certainly for Curry, 7:04 mins but as Carreras was yellow only was it just allowed to run out?
 
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crossref


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In the UK I am pretty sure we received no information about the Carreras decision.. YC time just ran out and he came back on

But it's possible that was just the (useless) ITV production team missing it ? In the other thread someone else reported that there was an update back to the ref, inside eight minutes saying he would be returning. Our commentators could have been talking over it. (The ref speaking is normally a signal for them to chatter over him!)
 
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crossref


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My understanding is that the bunker team have eight minutes of real time to make a decision.

Once they have a decision that should be communicated to the ref at next appropriate down time - so that could be a while later.
 
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didds

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Just checking CR - so 8 minutes of real time is eg 1800-1808 yes? Even if that includes 4 minutes of "clock off" eg for an injury ? so its in reality only 4 minutes of game time?
 

Phil E


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While under review the tv showed a half yellow, half red card next to the team name.
When the 8 minutes ran out it just turned full yellow, but I didn't hear anything said to the ref, or by him.
 

crossref


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Just checking CR - so 8 minutes of real time is eg 1800-1808 yes? Even if that includes 4 minutes of "clock off" eg for an injury ? so its in reality only 4 minutes of game time?
i don't know for certain, but it makes sense to me that bunker has eight minutes of elapsed time to make up their mind. game time is irrelevant.

this would make sense so that
- it's fair for every player - - ie every review is performed with exactly the same amount of time pressure (eight minutes)
- it keeps things moving

It's similar for HIAs - they are measured in elapsed time as again when you are doing a HIA it's not really relevant whether the match is going on or not, all HIAs should be done at the same speed for consistency.
 

didds

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that's fair reasoning indeed. Thanks.
 

Marc Wakeham


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Aside from the consistency and accuracy of the decisions, I'm trying not to go there again as other instances will surely arise but I was prompted by @crossref to consider the time the Bunker was taking for decisions, my thoughts on the Eng v Arg game, TV time is UK ITV:
View attachment 4641

From World Rugby
View attachment 4639


Are the captions on TV based upon 10 mins for Bunker decision, ie they have not seen the video above. Is the ref getting the message within the 8 mins, and advising at the next suitable moment, ie breakdown, certainly for Curry, 7:04 mins but as Carreras was yellow only was it just allowed to run out?

I could pick up discussion around 18:54 game time but as usual pundits were blathering and we did not get the explanation.
If Curry had 4.04 mins left of his YC when it was upgraded to red that surely means he'd had 5.56 min of his Review time. That is less that 8 minutes. As the "Bunker" has UP TO 8 minutes. surely that is job done?
In the case of Carreras, as there was no upgrade the game did not need any action until the player returned after the YC was up. I would imagine that this is communicated to the player / team at 8 mins so he can begin warming up to return. Which will be as soon as possible AFTER 10 minutes ast play allows.
 

crossref


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In the case of Carreras, as there was no upgrade the game did not need any action until the player returned after the YC was up. I would imagine that this is communicated to the player / team at 8 mins so he can begin warming up to return. Which will be as soon as possible AFTER 10 minutes ast play allows.
it's not just the player who should be notified of the decision though...
 

Volun-selected


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When they did the whole decision on field it normally took just 1-2 minutes, maybe a little longer when multiple players were involved.

Maybe the “up to 8” is just to ensure any removal is confirmed before the suspension ends?
 

Marc Wakeham


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When they did the whole decision on field it normally took just 1-2 minutes, maybe a little longer when multiple players were involved.

Maybe the “up to 8” is just to ensure any removal is confirmed before the suspension ends?
I would agree.
 

crossref


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When they did the whole decision on field it normally took just 1-2 minutes, maybe a little longer when multiple players were involved.

Maybe the “up to 8” is just to ensure any removal is confirmed before the suspension ends?
yes one of the advantages of the bunker is that they are under much less time pressure -- under the old system the ref/TMO were holding everyone up while they deliberated, so there was quite some pressure to get on with it, and they could feel hurried.

The bunker has eight minutes (max) so much more time - which also gives them time to look at more angles and also hawk-eye analysis (new). All with a decent buffer to get the decision back before the YC period is over.
 

BikingBud


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i don't know for certain, but it makes sense to me that bunker has eight minutes of elapsed time to make up their mind. game time is irrelevant.

this would make sense so that
- it's fair for every player - - ie every review is performed with exactly the same amount of time pressure (eight minutes)
- it keeps things moving

It's similar for HIAs - they are measured in elapsed time as again when you are doing a HIA it's not really relevant whether the match is going on or not, all HIAs should be done at the same speed for consistency.
Looking initially at the video it seems both decisions fall outside the 8 mins real time since 🟨 and 🙅‍♂️ and the subsequent decision/notification.
  • Curry 🟨 @ 45:30 + 8:00 = 53:30 whereas 🟥 was @54:40 (9:10 apparent decision time)
  • Looking again the referee appears to be informed just before the restart after Ford kicks the penalty goal, therefore allowing the card for Carreras and then the kick there is a natural and logical break at which to upgrade to Red.
  • Carreras 🟨 @52:58 + 8:00 = 60:58 player returned @ 1:05:16 (decision should have been done and dusted by 60:58)
  • For the Carreras' incident the Yellow/Red marker changes to only yellow around 15:04 game time (1:00:30 TV time) so around 6 mins elapsed time but the referee didn't advise the captain and Carreras returned around 19:49 game time (1:05:16 TV time) and 10:49 after being sin binned.
The video advises:
The referee will be informed and will then disclose to the captain
So that needs to be at a break in play. There were 2 free kicks, 2 lineouts and 1 scrum where that decision could have been communicated. Perhaps the message is that unless we tell you otherwise then the player will return.

If Curry had 4.04 mins left of his YC when it was upgraded to red that surely means he'd had 5.56 min of his Review time. That is less that 8 minutes. As the "Bunker" has UP TO 8 minutes. surely that is job done?
In the case of Carreras, as there was no upgrade the game did not need any action until the player returned after the YC was up. I would imagine that this is communicated to the player / team at 8 mins so he can begin warming up to return. Which will be as soon as possible AFTER 10 minutes ast play allows.
Where did you get the 4:04?
 

Marc Wakeham


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Looking initially at the video it seems both decisions fall outside the 8 mins real time since 🟨 and 🙅‍♂️and the subsequent decision/notification.
  • Curry 🟨 @ 45:30 + 8:00 = 53:30 whereas 🟥 was @54:40 (9:10 apparent decision time)
  • Looking again the referee appears to be informed just before the restart after Ford kicks the penalty goal, therefore allowing the card for Carreras and then the kick there is a natural and logical break at which to upgrade to Red.
  • Carreras 🟨 @52:58 + 8:00 = 60:58 player returned @ 1:05:16 (decision should have been done and dusted by 60:58)
  • For the Carreras' incident the Yellow/Red marker changes to only yellow around 15:04 game time (1:00:30 TV time) so around 6 mins elapsed time but the referee didn't advise the captain and Carreras returned around 19:49 game time (1:05:16 TV time) and 10:49 after being sin binned.
The video advises:

So that needs to be at a break in play. There were 2 free kicks, 2 lineouts and 1 scrum where that decision could have been communicated. Perhaps the message is that unless we tell you otherwise then the player will return.


Where did you get the 4:04?
From the attachment in your post. Which I can no longer access.
 

crossref


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it will get interesting if a decision is referred to the bunker in the last few minutes of the game.

I assume the bunker still get eight minutes to make a decision, even if the game has ended.
I wonder how the decision is communicated, and to whom, if the game ended a while ago

The referee's authority to issue a RC ends when the game ends, but the FPRO's authority must extend to no-side + eight minutes.
 

belladonna

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Guidance from World Rugby on Friday morning said the bunker official determined the arm was not tucked or pressed against Taofifenua's side, hence the tackle was not "always illegal". Therefore mitigation can apply.


Does anyone know where this guidance is issued?
 

Marc Wakeham


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Looking initially at the video it seems both decisions fall outside the 8 mins real time since 🟨 and 🙅‍♂️and the subsequent decision/notification.
  • Curry 🟨 @ 45:30 + 8:00 = 53:30 whereas 🟥 was @54:40 (9:10 apparent decision time)
  • Looking again the referee appears to be informed just before the restart after Ford kicks the penalty goal, therefore allowing the card for Carreras and then the kick there is a natural and logical break at which to upgrade to Red.
  • Carreras 🟨 @52:58 + 8:00 = 60:58 player returned @ 1:05:16 (decision should have been done and dusted by 60:58)
  • For the Carreras' incident the Yellow/Red marker changes to only yellow around 15:04 game time (1:00:30 TV time) so around 6 mins elapsed time but the referee didn't advise the captain and Carreras returned around 19:49 game time (1:05:16 TV time) and 10:49 after being sin binned.
The video advises:

So that needs to be at a break in play. There were 2 free kicks, 2 lineouts and 1 scrum where that decision could have been communicated. Perhaps the message is that unless we tell you otherwise then the player will return.


Where did you get the 4:04?
Right Sorry confusing the diagram:

Curry's Time line give the YC "X" at 02:59 Game Time and the RC at 10:03 Game Time that is a time difference of 7:04 mins How is that outside the 8 minutes?

Carreras Card time is YC )9:00 Game Time and the YC upheld at 18:54 (presumably the time he returned to the pitch. Under 10 minutes by 6 seconds)

Assuming the times on the diagram are correct and Game time = Elapsed playing time. (Ignoring the TV times are they are not relevant.)

Does the 8 minutes FPRO review time consist of Actual time or Playing time? I'd have thought it was 8 minutes of the YC timing.
 

Stu10


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it will get interesting if a decision is referred to the bunker in the last few minutes of the game.

I assume the bunker still get eight minutes to make a decision, even if the game has ended.
I wonder how the decision is communicated, and to whom, if the game ended a while ago

The referee's authority to issue a RC ends when the game ends, but the FPRO's authority must extend to no-side + eight minutes.
Apologies, a bit off topic, but I was curious about the last statement, so I did a search... I found this on another forum... is this correct?

"After the final whistle it's not the position of the offending player that matters, it is the position of the referee. If an offence occurs for which a player would be sent off and the referee is still on the field, then he shows the red card. If the referee has left the field of play and an offence occurs for which a player would be sent off, then it is reported as misconduct."
 

crossref


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Apologies, a bit off topic, but I was curious about the last statement, so I did a search... I found this on another forum... is this correct?

"After the final whistle it's not the position of the offending player that matters, it is the position of the referee. If an offence occurs for which a player would be sent off and the referee is still on the field, then he shows the red card. If the referee has left the field of play and an offence occurs for which a player would be sent off, then it is reported as misconduct."
after the final whistle has been blown, my understanding is the you would not show a RC -- what would it even mean?

after the final whistle
- MO abuse > MOA form

Anything else, let's say a fight broke out, out you heard some racist/homophobic abuse. No doubt there is a form for it, but I'd be writing everything down and calling my society and saying : help! get me the right form

But I wouldn't be brandishing a RC to anyone after the game was finished
 
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