[Law] Knock on into the dead ball area.

[OB..]

[LAWS]7.3 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Advantage must not be applied and the referee must blow the whistle immediately when:[/FONT]

• • [...]
  • f. The ball is made dead.[/LAWS]

 

[frenchie851]

[LAWS]7.3 [FONT=fs_blakeregular]Advantage must not be applied and the referee must blow the whistle immediately when:[/FONT]

• • [...]
  • f. The ball is made dead.[/LAWS]

OB.... That's cleared it up for me.

sub law (f). Doesn't allow vantage to be played.

During the game I played advantage then I saw it dotted down and in my head I thought "why not a 22?"

(Just in response to another reply, I've got to say no one questioned it at all it wasn't like anyone expected anything different).

The defending team (who would have had the put in to the scrum if I'd have given one) were having a terrible time on the scrum and would have got dominated in the scrum on there 5m line.

But good to know and to learn from a mistake (especially the mistakes that no one notices and doesn't affect the outcome of the game... They're the best mistakes to make)

 

[crossref]

Serious note as it is important : that Law means something else : it means you can't carry on playing advantage when the ball goes dead

For example blue 11 knocks on, and then he kicks the ball into touch -- you can't carry on playing advantage to let RED take a QTI.. even if it would be a really good QTI)...



If you are playing advantage and then the ball goes dead, then as the Law says : you must blow your whistle. Then EITHER declare "no advantage, back to the offence" or "Adv over" continue with the lineout (or whatever)

(for instance blue knock on, red gain possession and kick the ball into touch. Peep "Adv over, lineout" or in some circumstances "no advatage, back for the scrum" )

 

[thepercy]

Serious note as it is important : that Law means something else : it means you can't carry on playing advantage when the ball goes dead

For example blue 11 knocks on, and then he kicks the ball into touch -- you can't carry on playing advantage to let RED take a QTI.. even if it would be a really good QTI)...



If you are playing advantage and then the ball goes dead, then as the Law says : you must blow your whistle. Then EITHER declare "no advantage, back to the offence" or "Adv over" continue with the lineout (or whatever)

(for instance blue knock on, red gain possession and kick the ball into touch. Peep "Adv over, lineout" or in some circumstances "no advatage, back for the scrum" )

As has been mentioned in previous threads on this topic, the advantage (territorial) would be gained before the ball goes into touch.

 

[crossref]

As has been mentioned in previous threads on this topic, the advantage (territorial) would be gained before the ball goes into touch.

Although at the same time we have seen and discussed examples of elite refs waitng to see where the ball goes and calling no advantage, when the ball is sliced or , even , just misses touch

But regardless : if you are still playing adv when the ball goes dead dead -- then you blow your whistle and call it one way or the other

 

[Dickie E]

Got lost in the rewrite which didnt change anything

"But, constable, you can't book me. There is no 40 km/h speed sign!"

"Quite right, sir, but there used to be"

And, of course, as per Crossref's spreadsheet, lots of things DID change

 

[WoodyOne]

I think that either 22DO or the 5m defending scrum are 'sellable' on the day, but I do think that the best answer here is the 22DO.

If it had happened to me at the weekend my instinctive on-field reaction may well have been the scrum, but my more considered view is the 22DO because as has been said, the notion of 'too much advantage' doesn't make sense: would it have been 'too much advantage' if the knock on had been gathered by a blisteringly fast winger who gets a straight sprint to score at the other end? No... the only real question in that scenario would be when on the sprint upfield would you call advantage over? The 22? The half way? The try line?

The whistle should only sound in relation to the knock on if advantage ISN'T materialising, so I think that the best reaction here is peep the whistle, signal the 22, then say "advantage over".

As a final thought, this thread has thrown up a little -- pedantic -- peeve of mine. Why do we see the in-goal referred to as the "dead ball area"... the ball is very much alive! The only 'dead' thing about the in-goal is the line at the back. As CrossRef points out the citation of 7.3.f shouldn't apply and seems to have been triggered by this 'dead ball area' language: the ball's only dead if (per the definitions) "the referee blows the whistle to stop play or following an unsuccessful conversion", or (which is for some reason missing from the definitions) it goes over the dead-ball line.

 

[Phil E]

I think that either 22DO or the 5m defending scrum are 'sellable' on the day, but I do think that the best answer here is the 22DO.

If you give a scrum for a knock on into in-goal, what is the best the non offending team could hope for?
They could win the scrum and kick up field to clear their line.
Or they could run the ball and break the gain line.

Either way its a shortish gain. Which is what they would expect if you played advantage and they kicked clear or ran it past the gain line (advantage over).


If you give the 22 for a knock on, they get an unopposed kick from about 15m further forward, or get to tap and go from about 15m in front of the gain line.

Either way it is far more advantage than they could expect to get from a knock on, scrum advantage.


If you gave a 22 for a knock on into in goal I would mark it down as an error on an assessment.

 

[crossref]

Practically speaking Phil's advice is sound .. as the assessor and the players will expect a scrum . For the scenario in the OP out on the field I also recommend a scrum.

But Phil your reasoning is all over the place and not based on Law (not a single Law reference)

The first challenge you have to get past is Law 12

[LAWS]12.11 Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.
[/LAWS]

 

[Flish]

Practically speaking Phil's advice is sound .. as the assessor and the players will expect a scrum . For the scenario in the OP out on the field I also recommend a scrum.

But Phil your reasoning is all over the place and not based on Law (not a single Law reference)

The first challenge you have to get past is Law 12

[LAWS]12.11 Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.
[/LAWS]

Phil's explanation is a better way or explaining my 'too much advantage' earlier, and broadly how explained to me by an assessor (which you admit is the expected outcome).

In terms of law, again the advantage laws give us this no? As earlier in the thread;

[LAWS]7.3.f
Advantage must not be applied and the referee must blow the whistle immediately when: .... The ball is made dead.[/LAWS]

We're under advantage for the knock, ball goes dead, 7.3.f kicks in, blow whistle and back we go - don't pass go, don't collect £200, and don't go to 12.11 and have a drop kick?

That's how I see it anyway - the reasoning (not written in law but explained to me by more experienced people) is that to do otherwise is too much advantage as per Phil E's better explanation

 

[crossref]

Flish 7.3.f means something else (see post 23)

But really any discussion of how tactical and territorial advantage can be gained is pretty esoteric when faced with the simple clarity of 12.11 ..

[LAWS]
12.11 Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.[/LAWS]

. A 22DO isn't the result of a knock on, it's the ( normal and accepted ) result of taking or sending the ball into the opponents in goal, and the ball going dead.

 

[Pinky]

Flish 7.3.f means something else (see post 23)

But really any discussion of how tactical and territorial advantage can be gained is pretty esoteric when faced with the simple clarity of 12.11 ..

[LAWS]
12.11 Apart from at a kick-off or restart kick, if the ball is played or taken into in-goal by an attacking player and is made dead by an opponent, play is restarted with a 22-metre drop-out.[/LAWS]

. A 22DO isn't the result of a knock on, it's the ( normal and accepted ) result of taking or sending the ball into the opponents in goal, and the ball going dead.

CR, the problem with 12.11 as you read it is that (imo) the ball is not played into in-goal where it is knocked on. I read 12.11 as applying to a legal play of the ball into the in-goal only.

 

[crossref]

CR, the problem with 12.11 as you read it is that (imo) the ball is not played into in-goal where it is knocked on. I read 12.11 as applying to a legal play of the ball into the in-goal only.

Pinky, tbh i would accept that argument, which is why this discussion normally focuses on the scenario of taking the ball legally into the in goal (carry or kick) and .. then knocking it on inside the in goal , and it goes dead...


(The old Law Book used to distinguish between the two, with different Laws. But now there is no distinction made)

 

[Flish]

Pinky, tbh i would accept that argument, which is why this discussion normally focuses on the scenario of taking the ball legally into the in goal (carry or kick) and .. then knocking it on inside the in goal , and it goes dead...


(The old Law Book used to distinguish between the two, with different Laws. But now there is no distinction made)

Which is why we need more words in the law book, not less - similar confusion happens with a charge down into in goal - is that 'played' or not - pretty sure I've called that one both ways now (and been 'wrong' each time!)

 

[crossref]

There is a definition of played
It means Intentionally Touched

(which includes charge downs and, indeed, knock ons for that matter)

A knock on is playing the ball , but you are not intentionally sending it over a particular line or intentionally playing it in any specific direction (otherwise if you were it would be a PK)

 

[Dickie E]

as much as I dislike it, law 12.11 seems to be the only law that covers the OP.

Now, a knock on whilst in-goal might be a different fish.

 

[WoodyOne]

If you gave a 22 for a knock on into in goal I would mark it down as an error on an assessment.

Given the infrequency of assessments at the moment, you could probably say whatever you wanted and I'd be happy just to have been assessed! Summary of my position is much the same a crossref has argued so I won't repeat it here.

As ever, great to mull this over and see the different views available.

 

[didds]

I can see both arguments but am nore than happy to accept OB's (amongst other's stance) as the accepted view. I suppose its that old "what does your society tell you blow", and do that even if you disagree.

Eventually it's down to credibility. The debates over semantics don't help a ref's credibility if he is seen blowing a different manner to what the last several refs have done, whoever's debate is correct.

didds

 

[OB..]

as much as I dislike it, law 12.11 seems to be the only law that covers the OP.

Now, a knock on whilst in-goal might be a different fish.

It is a fallacy to think that forensic argument over the wording of various laws can answer all problems. It can't for the simple reason that the "Laws" are not written to the necessary legalistic standards.

In the older law books, a defending scrum was ordered for a knock-on in in-goal, but the knock-on into in-goal was not covered. This gap was noticed and covered by making all knock-ons in or into in-goal sanctioned by a defending scrum. That is the normal sanction for a knock-on unless the opponents actually play and gain an advantage. Making the ball dead is the antithesis of playing. The referee awarding a 22 DO is not anything gained by the players - it is given by the (mistaken) whim of the referee.

 

[WoodyOne]

... unless the opponents actually play and gain an advantage. Making the ball dead is the antithesis of playing. The referee awarding a 22 DO is not anything gained by the players...

I think that's an excellent point. That and the question of 'what will 30 players expect' is probably enough for me to lean away from my prior answer and endorse the scrum. Thanks.