Leggings

[Simon Thomas]

In answer to a specific question I asked him following the start of this thread, and questions from others including the organisers of NSS (as last year there were issues with players wearing leggings), Dave Broadwell (RFU Refs Dept, RFU Law Committee Liasion to IRB, and London & South East Referee Manager) asked IRB about legging legality and got an email reply on 1st March refferrring him back to exisiting Law, Regulation 12 and 2006 Ruling.

Leggings are illegal match wear, but dispensation and variation can be given by Home Union - for example in an Islamic area where women play.

 

[Phil E]

Leggings are illegal match wear, but dispensation and variation can be given by Home Union - for example in an Islamic area where women play.

I think that ends the thread. :clap:

 

[crossref]

perhaps we could have a poll then to see what people would do in practice...

Scenario
- an U16 League game on a cold day in February in Ruralshire Division 5. Smallclub U16 v LargeClub U16 B. Both teams have only 2 subs

- 5 players are in leggings, three from one team, two from another

Do you say nothing, or attempt to make them to change?

When you make them change
- one claims religious reasons
- one claims he has excema and the leggings protect his skin
- two simply refuse
- one says I'll take mine off if everyone else does, but if he can wear them then so can I.

:chin: :biggrin:

 

[Tryer]

I've been reading this thread with interest...... I'm a coach and ref of junior age groups, my initial thoughts were - they're kids and I wouldn't make a fuss regardless of a friendly or competitive game (County Cup for example). As a team one player has worn them once for us this season before Christmas, although last season it was more prevalent. No-one, us or the opposition has ever made a fuss.

As I said no-one in our team will wear them for this, I'm a bit of a stickler for shirts tucked into shorts and socks pulled up etc. However in terms of gamesmanship we are now through to a County Cup Final and I have noted that our opposition do wear them, actually up to 6 or 8 players. They have been wearing them even in warm weather. I'm now wrestling with myself that if we turn up and the oppo are wearing them, should I ask that they be removed, if the ref doesn't insist? It may upset them a little which if they have nothing else will also cause an inconvenience and we may get an edge. On the other hand it could also give them extra motivation for me being so pedantic.

I'm not a win at all costs type of coach but as a player I'd always being trying to get under the oppos skin whether to put them off their game or concentrate on me more than the ball, but this is a final and these little things are now entering my mind.

What would you do???

 

[Ian_Cook]

Interestingly, Ruling 5 - 2006.....

The Designated Members have ruled the following in answer to the question raised:
1. Jersey: a close fitting shirt worn on the upper half of the body which is not attached to shorts or underwear.
2. Shorts: trousers that start at the waist and end above the knees, have an elasticised waist band and/or draw string, and are not attached to the jersey or underwear.
3. Underwear: an undergarment, that covers the body from the waist, having short or no legs but does end above the knees, and worn next to the skin or under clothing, and not attached to the jersey or shorts.

...makes no mention of how long socks must be, and whether or not they must end below the knee.

I wonder if thigh-length socks are legal?

Perhaps someone could ask the French to enquire!! :biggrin:

 

[Phil E]

Scenario
- an U16 League game on a cold day in February in Ruralshire Division 5. Smallclub U16 v LargeClub U16 B. Both teams have only 2 subs

- 5 players are in leggings, three from one team, two from another

Do you say nothing, or attempt to make them to change?

When you make them change
- one claims religious reasons
- one claims he has excema and the leggings protect his skin
- two simply refuse
- one says I'll take mine off if everyone else does, but if he can wear them then so can I.

:chin: :biggrin:

Make them change of course.

"I appreciate what you are saying to me, but the laws of the game are quite specific on this issue. If you want special dispensation you will have to apply to a higher level than me and it won't happen before the game starts."

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Reffed my own club's A team Friday and one of the lads ran out for the warm up in leggings
"You can't play in them" says I to much disbelief around the club.
"But I've wore them for the last 4 weeks" says the player.
"That may be true but they are banned and your not playing wearing girlie tights" says I.
He took them off!!

 

[Skid986]

It tells you what you CAN wear. shirt, shirts, socks and underwear.

It then defines underwear; and leggings don't fit the description.

No it doesn't. It merely asked for definintions, as below:

'The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 4 Players’ Clothing.
Please provide a definition of jersey, shorts and underwear.'​

It doesn't say anywhere in this what items are permitted to be worn. If we restricted play to those items for which the FFR requested definition there would be no boots, armour, gloves/mitts, etc

Frankly I'm somewhat surprised this thread has dragged on for so long without anybody being able to provide evidence of any body actually outlawing leggings. For me it's all rumour and conjecture until somebody can provide tangible evidence rather than second hand anecdotes. I, for one, will be ignoring what is a somewhat minor and pointless issue on the field of play until somebody can give clear evidence to the contrary.

 

[SimonSmith]

No it doesn't. It merely asked for definintions, as below:

'The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 4 Players’ Clothing.
Please provide a definition of jersey, shorts and underwear.'​

It doesn't say anywhere in this what items are permitted to be worn. If we restricted play to those items for which the FFR requested definition there would be no boots, armour, gloves/mitts, etc

Frankly I'm somewhat surprised this thread has dragged on for so long without anybody being able to provide evidence of any body actually outlawing leggings. For me it's all rumour and conjecture until somebody can provide tangible evidence rather than second hand anecdotes. I, for one, will be ignoring what is a somewhat minor and pointless issue on the field of play until somebody can give clear evidence to the contrary.

with respect, I think you're wrong.
The law is specific about what players wear:

DEFINITIONS
Players’ clothing is anything players wear.
A player wears a jersey, shorts and underwear, socks and boots.
Detailed information relating to the permitted specifications for clothing and studs
maybe found in IRB Specifications (Regulation 12).

The French clarified the definition of underwear. By reasoning it through (that leggings are not compliant with the definition of underwear, and not listed anywhere), it appears that leggings are not law-compliant.

 

[triage]

with respect, I think you're wrong.
The law is specific about what players wear:

.

however regulation 12 does allow for support garments to be worn for prevention of injury...if made from washable elasticated material......such support compression garments are made as skins and leggings and there is no definition under regulation 12 for how big or small these garments may be :wink:

 

[Skid986]

The French clarified the definition of underwear. By reasoning it through (that leggings are not compliant with the definition of underwear, and not listed anywhere), it appears that leggings are not law-compliant.

So by the same reasoning thermal tops are also banned items of clothing?

 

[Simon Thomas]

For me it's all rumour and conjecture until somebody can provide tangible evidence rather than second hand anecdotes. I, for one, will be ignoring what is a somewhat minor and pointless issue on the field of play until somebody can give clear evidence to the contrary.

We have an IRB Law Ruling on headed paper, I also have a recent clarification email from RFU's Ref Dept's employee Dave B (who is IRB LoG liaison for RFU) - those are both good enough for me as a Society Chairman, with the full support of my Committee, to issue instructions to our Society's members to not allow leggings to be worn.

I would hope you would follow your Society's instructions too if they did the same.

 

[Ian_Cook]

OK

DEFINITIONS
Players’ clothing is anything players wear.

A player wears a jersey, shorts and underwear, socks and boots.

Detailed information relating to the permitted specifications for clothing and studs maybe found in IRB Specifications (Regulation 12).

Ruling 5 -2006 specifies thet underwear must stop above the knee

What about socks? Do they have to stop below the knee? Not anywhere in any Law, Law ruling or Regulation is there a definition of socks and how much of the body they are allowed to cover...

so.....

Socks... thigh-high

 

[Skid986]

We have an IRB Law Ruling on headed paper, I also have a recent clarification email from RFU's Ref Dept's employee Dave B (who is IRB LoG liaison for RFU) - those are both good enough for me as a Society Chairman, with the full support of my Committee, to issue instructions to our Society's members to not allow leggings to be worn.

I would hope you would follow your Society's instructions too if they did the same.

Of course I would follow formal instructions when issued. But this is my point. I and many others have not SEEN any OFFICIAL direction that specifically outlaws leggings. All I'm asking for is some tangible evidence that this is something to be enforced.

Who is the 'we' you refer to as having received an IRB law ruling on headed paper? We the whole rugby world, or 'we' your society? If you have an official IRB law ruling then please direct me to it because I can't find it on their website and if such a directive was put into the public domain it would stop this thread dead in its tracks. I would then walk away a contented man knowing the official line, rather than having to rely on people's opinions of what they think others interpret the situation to be.

 

[crossref]

We have an IRB Law Ruling on headed paper, I also have a recent clarification email from RFU's Ref Dept's employee Dave B (who is IRB LoG liaison for RFU) - those are both good enough for me as a Society Chairman, with the full support of my Committee, to issue instructions to our Society's members to not allow leggings to be worn.

Can't you scan the IRB ruling and post it up here ?

 

[Phil E]

Warwickshire have been told that leggings are not allowed and we are to enforce that.

We have also been told things such as:

All clubs must have barriers of some description.

Yellow cards are 10 minutes for EVERY game except 7's.

Rules on intervention in youth rugby, etc.

 

[Simon Thomas]

Of course I would follow formal instructions when issued. But this is my point. I and many others have not SEEN any OFFICIAL direction that specifically outlaws leggings. All I'm asking for is some tangible evidence that this is something to be enforced.

Who is the 'we' you refer to as having received an IRB law ruling on headed paper? We the whole rugby world, or 'we' your society? If you have an official IRB law ruling then please direct me to it because I can't find it on their website and if such a directive was put into the public domain it would stop this thread dead in its tracks. I would then walk away a contented man knowing the official line, rather than having to rely on people's opinions of what they think others interpret the situation to be.

We is the whole rugby world, and your Society would have received the Law Ruling 5 on 14th November 2006. Since then it has been available for the whole world to see at http://www.irb.com/mm/document/lawsregs/0/070301lawrulings2006_598.pdf , well and truly in the public domain and as official as you can get !

Also I am sorry you don't think you can take the opinion of a large Society's Chairman who is almost daily contact with the RFU, and the RFU's Refs Dept representative on the Law sub-commitee and who is the RFU's IRB Law liaison officer. I am not sure who else's interpretation might be more reliable or taken as "Official "?

Also where it is published by London Society in the NSS tournament rules, that carries a pretty high level "official stamp" in my estimation.

We are all volunteers and I try to share information where I can, as some Societies maybe don't have the size, time or communication network to get through their members about everything.

Which Society is NMRFRS ?

 

[Phil E]

Which Society is NMRFRS ?

I believe it's North Mids and their website contains a link to the IRB law Rulings page HERE, where you can find the ruling on leggings under the title 2006 Laws Ruling.

 

[triage]

sorry if I am being dull here but the document linked to by you simon (and I am not doubting your knowledge and we have been told similarly by our society) but it doesn't outlaw the leggings as such...however (and more shockingly) it appears to outlaw long sleeved skins(which would outlaw leggings also IMO)....am I reading this incorrectly? and if I am not, should I be requesting players to remove these even though they see players on TV wearing them?

 

[Skid986]

Simon,

Please don't take this personally. I'm not having a dig, questioning your experience or integrity. I'm merely asking for somebody to provide a definitive piece of evidence to support the alleged outlawing of leggings. The 2006 ruling you refer to is reproduced in full here:

RULING 5: 2006
Law Ruling by Designated Members of Rugby Committee

14 November 2006

The FFR has requested a ruling with regard to Law 4 Players’ Clothing. Please provide a definition of jersey, shorts and underwear. The Designated Members have ruled the following in answer to the question raised:

1. Jersey: a close fitting shirt worn on the upper half of the body which is not attached to shorts or underwear.

2. Shorts: trousers that start at the waist and end above the knees, have an elasticised waist band and/or draw string, and are not attached to the jersey or underwear.

3. Underwear: an undergarment, that covers the body from the waist, having short or no legs but does end above the knees, and worn next to the skin or under clothing, and not attached to the jersey or shorts.​

With respect, this law ruling has nothing to do with leggings, which are not mentioned at all. It merely asks for definitions of 3 items of clothing, as I said in an earlier post. So the question remains: is there a specific ruling in respect of leggings? Furthermore, if an item is not specifically listed as being permitted, should we assume that ALL other items are outlawed, which would include thermal tops et al? If so, is there somewhere in the laws, regulations or rulings which specifically states that no items other than those listed are permitted to be worn?