[Golden Oldies] Nigel Owens on inclusive rugby.

[Not Kurt Weaver]

That tangential. Well Israel’s parents are Tongan and he says Tonga is his spiritual home. His mum is a Methodist minister. What I was trying to get at is that he justified his comments by saying it was his belief system. So how come he doesn’t respect the ( fakaleiti ) inclusiveness of Polynésien culture or indeed call out the sinners on that island who beat their wives. The last one is a double edged sword, because unsurprisingly Tongans justify wife beating by (you guessed it) saying the bible says it is a man’s right.

you and I do not know his belief system, just because he is Tongan doesn't mean his belief system is 100% that of your stereotypical
Togan.

The only thing we know for sure is that he is speaking as someone in freedom, and he is willing to accept the consequences

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Based on the original photo of Warning


Based on the original photo of:

Warning Drunks Homosexuals Adulterers Liars Fornicators Thieves Atheists Idolaters Hell Awaits You Repent Only Jesus Saves

Well, after my pineal gland empties the DMT I'll be in purgatory for at least 3 of the list. 4 if waiting for my wife at the grocery with the engine running is that last one listed.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

Double posting, but James Haskell had this to say about Israel’s comments

https://youtu.be/vlzp2G1ELws?t=1

 

[Ian_Cook]

https://youtu.be/vlzp2G1ELws?t=1

I had forgotten what an complete buffoon Alan Jones is. As usual, he entirely misses the point....

"Former Wallabies Coach Alan Jones says it's time people "toughen up" and accept that Folau is entitled to believe that gay people are destined to go to hell"

...and no-one, but no-one is arguing that Folau is not entitled to believe this. What he is NOT entitled to do, however, is weaponize his belief to publicly vilify that group, or any other group.

That this has to be continually repeated calls into question the both the intelligence and comprehension skills of some of the public.

 

[Dickie E]

I had forgotten what an complete buffoon Alan Jones is. As usual, he entirely misses the point....

"Former Wallabies Coach Alan Jones says it's time people "toughen up" and accept that Folau is entitled to believe that gay people are destined to go to hell"

...and no-one, but no-one is arguing that Folau is not entitled to believe this. What he is NOT entitled to do, however, is weaponize his belief to publicly vilify that group, or any other group.

That this has to be continually repeated calls into question the both the intelligence and comprehension skills of some of the public.

and Tim Wilson MP? Openly gay politician. Buffoon too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdHyrxhIA1w

By the way, what does 'weaponize a belief' mean?

 

[crossref]

Folau is contesting his dismissal.
Undoubtedly he will claim religious discrimination.

As always this will turn on the exact wording of his contract

Israel Folau hearing could turn on point of NSW law, expert says

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...t-says?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

 

[Ian_Cook]

and Tim Wilson MP? Openly gay politician. Buffoon too?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdHyrxhIA1w

Firstly, good on you for posting a 12 month old video that actually addresses the FIRST time Folau did this. Folau then agreed not to post like that again, and has broken that agreement. I wonder what Tim Wilson thinks about it now?

Secondly, Tim Wilson is a grown up, openly gay man (I don't know whether or not he is a theist). The chances are that Folau's statement would have little impact on him. The same could not be said for a young gay man, still in the closet, who is thinking about coming out. It would be even worse for him if he was a Christian, from one of the many Christian denominations to be inclusive of LGBTQ individuals within church and the community.

By the way, what does 'weaponize a belief' mean?

In answer to that, I will leave you this. Do yourself a favour and read it - but a warning. The description of how Matt Sheperd was brutalised is not pleasant.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-45968606

My son's lost life is proof of the harm that comes from weaponizing each other's beliefs. I understand, in a way that no father should, how hard it can be to stay civil when someone's core convictions and true identity are up for debate. But it doesn't move our society any closer to being more accepting to deny each other the equal right to live and be loved. A person's sexual orientation and gender identity is no more a choice than a person's height or eye color.

In Matt's memory, my wife, Judy, and I have dedicated our lives to working for equality, acceptance and respect for all marginalized communities, including the LGBTQ community. This is not to say my son was perfect -- he was a typical college student in every sense -- but I have never doubted that he loved his country and expected to be loved by it in all aspects, including the legal rights afforded to all Americans, both straight and gay.

This is the ultimate result of what happens when beliefs become weaponised.

 

[beckett50]

I think that some on here are missing the point about Israel Folou.

He is in the employ of ARU - as a Centrally Contracted player - and as such signed an agreement that details expectations and responsibilities from both sides of the table. Part of that employment contract was a section about what can and cannot be said on certain platforms, be they social media or a conference dais. Lawyers from both sides would have approved the contract before it was signed by both parties.

Israel Folau has breached the contract on 2 occasions now. On the first he was subject to an enquiry and a disciplinary hearing where the ARU reiterated its stance and he was no doubt given an opportunity to put his side, either directly or through his legal team. The fact that he continued in the employ of the ARU demonstrates that he agreed to abide to contract that he was given.

He has now breached that agreement again with a quite vitriolic monologue on social media. Whether he was under the influence of something at the time is irrelevant. He has breached the contract again and ARU are within their rights - as they have so done - to remind his contract (as has his club side).

Like it or not, he - and others like him - are role models for the wider society. There is no way that what he said was meant in jest so that is not a defence.

It is true that there are many Countries where his sayings are welcome. Look at the recent backlash against Brunei for the incumbent monarch saying that homosexuals should be stoned to death.

Why should Folau be permitted to spout this divisive vitriol in what is an inclusive sport? Think of how long it took for the likes of Nigel Owens and Gareth Thomas to "come out".

When you pull on a National Jersey you represent your country and all for which it stands. Does Australia really stand for that which Israel Folau spouts?

Believe what you want, just don't subject me to it - unless I ask for your opinion and only then can you tell me what you think. But be prepared for a counter argument.

 

[Dickie E]

as we are now going around in circles I will sign off with:

"I disapprove of what Folau says, but I will defend to the death his right to say it"

The erosion of freedom of speech is a much greater, and more insidious, concern than "hate speech".

 

[Ian_Cook]

Anyone who doesn't believe that what people of influence say can have a negative impact on others, need only look across the oceans to the USA to see the ultimate expression of what weaponising beliefs leads to, where the Liar-in-Chief; a racist, misogynistic homophobe uses the Bully Pulpit to spread fear and hatred of minority groups.. and people suffer because of it. Hate crimes in counties that hosted Trump's rallies in 2016 rose by 226%, Nationally, hate crimes rose 17% in 2017, with a 50% increase in anti-Semitic attacks. All indications are that these increased substantially in 2018.

WORDS MATTER !!

 

[Dickie E]

WORDS MATTER !!

but no words matters more

 

[Pedro]

as we are now going around in circles I will sign off with:

"I disapprove of what Folau says, but I will defend to the death his right to say it"

The erosion of freedom of speech is a much greater, and more insidious, concern than "hate speech".

Folau is Absolutely and utterly within his rights to say what he said. He has freedom of speech.

ARU are Absolutely and utterly within their rights to sack him for saying it - because:
a) His contract, T&C's and the ARU policy documents outline specifically that he can't do it without consequence
b) They have given him fair warning of the consequences of saying it
c) It makes him a dick

Freedom of speech is not freedom of consequence. It never has been, and never should be. That consequence should always be fair and reasonable. In this case - it is, without question.

 

[didds]

Its even simpler that the above.

IF has freedom of speech - undoutebtly

RA has to deal with, interact , employ, liase and work with people of all life styles and choices. they would be stupid to do anything that is actually illegal, but also would affect its ability to successfully deal with, interact , employ, liase and work with people of all life styles and choices. having high profile members of RA (whether employees, volunteers ot whatever) potentially making statements that create friction with those that RA deal, interact , employ, liase and work with people of all life styles and choices leaves RA in a difficult situation going forward. so its understandable that RA might wish to limit the scenarios whereby it is conflicted between those that it has to deal, interact , employ, liase and work with people of all life styles and choices

etc

didds

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

WORDS MATTER !!

Here is the problem, Who decides which words matter?, and how does that who enforce them?

 

[crossref]

I think there are more nuances here than you allow Ian

For a start I imagine you haven't read his actual contract.

 

[Not Kurt Weaver]

I heard there was a group of Aussie Adulterers suing IF for libel. Can't wait for the civil rights attorneys to cx them. AA have a pretty good good case since adultery is legal in NSW.

 

[Pedro]

I think there are more nuances here than you allow Ian

For a start I imagine you haven't read his actual contract.

It won’t be in his contract, it will be in the RA policy documents. This twitter thread gives plenty of detail.
https://twitter.com/nicksjj/status/1118751547276525570?s=21

 

[L'irlandais]

Life is funny, sometimes these things come back to bite you on the bum. His stupid comments have created some problems for his professional netballer wife Maria. I am for playing the long game, here’s betting that in 5 or 10 years he finds himself in some very embarrassing situation, where LGBT have the last laugh. For a man who already has had problems with alcohol, it’s odd to say publicly drunkards are going to hell.

Nick Heath’s response is spot on
[LAWS]As a gay rugby commentator, I’ve had enough of God-fearing athletes telling me I need to repent for my sins.[/LAWS]Folau’s hateful comments are damaging, not only to rugby.

 

[Dickie E]

I think there are more nuances here than you allow Ian

For a start I imagine you haven't read his actual contract.

there is an issue that, by RA stating that they will terminate his contract before the CoC hearing, they have not followed a fair & reasonable process.

 

[Dickie E]

Here is the problem, Who decides which words matter?, and how does that who enforce them?

that'd be QANTAS and they do it by withholding sponsorship. They have become our self-appointed corporate SJWs.