[Law] Pre-match chat with captains

[OB..]

something being in place since the stone age doesn't necessarily make it right.

No, but it does show that it is surprising so many people still do not know it.

There you have it. The toss-winning captain unfairly gets both outcomes that he wants: to receive the kick AND which end he wants.

In rugby most people (apart from Americans, in my experience) think kicking is better than receiving. That is why the non-scoring team takes the restart kicks. Sevens reverses this because in that variation possession is more important than territory.

 

[Dickie E]

In rugby most people (apart from Americans, in my experience) think kicking is better than receiving.

That's interesting and I'm happy to accept it.

So what we are effectively saying to the captain that loses the toss is "mate, the other skipper has chosen an end. What we could do is give you the option of kick or receive, however, experience tells us that you'd probably rather kick, so we'll make that decision for you".

Here's an analogy (I like analogies):

You have 2 children, Billy & Tilly. You say to them "children, we have 2 choices to make, each of which has 2 outcomes".

"Choice 1 is whether we go to the park on Friday or Saturday. Choice 2 is whether we play football or cricket once we are at the park".

"Now, I'm going to toss a coin. Tilly, you call heads or tails to see who gets first choice".

"Now here's where the fun starts, children. If the winner of the toss chooses that we go to the park on Friday then the other will choose whether we play football or cricket".

"BUT, if the winner of the toss really wants to play cricket, then they can choose cricket and we will automatically go to the park on Saturday".

"what do you mean 'that makes no sense'? We've been doing it this way since 1871!"

 

[Drift]

Pre-match to captains is:

"Any questions?"
Then answer any questions they have, then:
"Alright, see you in 5 for the toss and then kick off."

 

[damo]

I don't say much to the captains outside the pre-match briefing. I make sure I know their names and what position they play and then we do the toss.

I've never had any issues with the toss like people are describing here. If a captain asks to "receive" I just ask him which way he wants to run. If a captain elects an end I just say announce that the other team is kicking off and running 'that way' pointing to the direction the other captain didn't choose. Nobody has ever questioned any of this so far as I can remember. Just take control of the situation and remove any doubts and you won't have any trouble.

 

[didds]

T
"what do you mean 'that makes no sense'? We've been doing it this way since 1871!"

*shrug*

I think we've bigger concerns to worry about.

Like how since circa 1991 (if not before) despite what the law says and what law changes are made, at the elite end referees are still blind when it comes to straight scrum put-ins, and the knock on effects that has on scrum safety and a PK fest. And that after all this time the game still can't come up with a touch law that doesn't need the computational 3D powers of Steve Austin.

didds

 

[Dickie E]

*shrug*

I think we've bigger concerns to worry about.

Sure, there's global warming, ISIS & human trafficking ... but we can walk & chew gum at the same time.

 

[didds]

Sure, there's global warming, ISIS & human trafficking ... but we can walk & chew gum at the same time.

SOME of us can.

didds

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Locally Old Patesians have a sloping pitch. If they win the toss they invariably choose to play uphill in order to have the downhill advantage in the second half.

Which, as Michael Green tell us, is a mistake as the 2nd half is invariably much shorter than the 1st half.

 

[crossref]

Pre-match to captains is:

"Any questions?"
Then answer any questions they have, then:
"Alright, see you in 5 for the toss and then kick off."

I am confused, do you meet with the captains twice? why not do the toss there and then.

Or if the 'any questions' part is individually, one after the other, and the time that you have both captains together is, indeed, the toss, then is there any thing you say at that time, at the time where you have both captains together?

 

[Drift]

I am confused, do you meet with the captains twice? why not do the toss there and then.

Or if the 'any questions' part is individually, one after the other, and the time that you have both captains together is, indeed, the toss, then is there any thing you say at that time, at the time where you have both captains together?

I meet them separately, then together at the toss. Nothing special at the toss, away team calls and the winner gets a choice. If they choose and end I'll confirm the others are kicking off or vice versa.

I don't understand why people spend a lot of time on this, the players know what is expected of them and know how to play the game.

Only time I will differ from my very minimal chat is in a finals game where I will explain to the captains that I will be looking to them even more than usual to lead their teams and controlling/directing their player's focus.

 

[Thunderhorse1986]

Front row: Gents at the scrum I need to see that you are square and stable through engagement process. You'll get plenty of time to get into the right position, I won't rush you, don't rush ahead of my calls please. Happy with that? Lineout, I'm marking the defensive line so front man get your players on that mark. Thanks

I then speak to captain individually.

It's really important that you manage and maintain your players' discipline. If you don't manage that discipline, I will have to, and you probably won't like the consequences*. If want to have a quick chat, do it at downtime, scrum or lineout, not a penalty. We want to give both sides the opportunity to go quick if they want it. I'll try to communicate as much as I can - if you and your players listen then we should have a good game of rugby. Any questions? Thanks

Then at the toss I reiterate the point on discipline while both captains present, and do the toss. Once toss done I confirm "Okay, so Black will be kicking in this direction to White" (which also hopefully clarifies colours I'll be using at least to captains). "Good luck, kick of is in XX minutes."

I think my overall PMB has gone from being over 5 minutes all in, to not much more than a minute. Haven't noticed any deterioration in outcomes because of that! I coud probably cut it even further!

*This is usually delivered with a smile and hopefully is not as officious as it looks when written down!

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

That's interesting and I'm happy to accept it.

So what we are effectively saying to the captain that loses the toss is "mate, the other skipper has chosen an end. What we could do is give you the option of kick or receive, however, experience tells us that you'd probably rather kick, so we'll make that decision for you".

At toss at my game last weekend winning skipper chose an end. Loser chose to receive. I told him he couldn't and that he had to kick off - he looked perplexed. I smiled and gave him OB..'s address.

On side note I found my Australian 50p which I had mislaid and used that (again) - it weighs a ton(ne)!

 

[Paule23]

I muck about frequently with my briefing, frequently everyone, sometimes just front row andc captains. Usually talk about discipline, sometimes specific laws that are on my mind.

But its been said, they all listen and nod their heads, then ignore you so I then question what is the point? Frequently comes down to giving a reference when you penalise quickly. You can say you highlighted this, you've ignored me, hence the penalty (before A, T, P).

I'll keep amending depending on my mood.

 

[ChrisR]

As a coach there is one thing that I really like to see in a referee: setting a collaborative tone with the captains instead of a combative one.

. . . and a short, to the point PMB that fits into our warm up sequence.

 

[SimonSmith]

As a coach there is one thing that I really like to see in a referee: setting a collaborative tone with the captains instead of a combative one.

. . . and a short, to the point PMB that fits into our warm up sequence.

One of my first question to the Coach: when do you want me to do boots and talk?
It's THEIR time, not mine

 

[menace]

"Coach - is now a good time for your team?

Capt - do you have any questions for me or want me to be aware of anything? (9/10 nothing - occasionally "we have this move..." ''can you watch xx?"..I give 10sec answer))

Ok - can you please look after discipline. We don't need 30 other refs out there.
If you need to speak to me do so when the ball is dead please, not at a penalty. But we're not debating. Ok?
I assume you want quick ball - so lets afford the other side the same. Tacklers out of there quickly - out the sides not rolling over the opposition side.
If you have a good jacklar then make sure clear release and hard on the ball - not past the ball. If he remains in a strong position and survive the cleanout he can be rewarded. [still confusion here about tackle assist !]
Get your 10 to set the offside lines at scrum and lineout please.

Can I speak with front row and 9 please? (usually Capt stays and listens but I don't mind if he wanders off)

Gents. Long binds please. Square and steady at each stage please. Give me a gap between shoulders on 'bind'. The competition and pushing only starts when the ball is in.
Push straight. If you want to turn the scrum - two clear steps downfield from the whole FR first.

Yes you can speak to me about the scrums - but please keep it respectful.

9 - give me a credible feed please. You're not playing league today - so something down the middle. Don't take the p!ss.

Any questions? (usually none)
Enjoy your game - kick off in xx mins. I'll give you a reminder 5m before"

Usually takes about 1 mins each audience.

I find covering this makes offside, ruck and scrum PKs easier to sell. They've been told my standards.

 

[Phil E]

I assume you want quick ball - so lets afford the other side the same. Tacklers out of there quickly - out the sides not rolling over the opposition side.
If you have a good jacklar then make sure clear release and hard on the ball - not past the ball. If he remains in a strong position and survive the cleanout he can be rewarded. [still confusion here about tackle assist !]
Get your 10 to set the offside lines at scrum and lineout please.

How much of this do you think the Captain passes on to the whole team?

 

[menace]

Dont really care to be honest.

I guess you can say that with every pre match chat? Even yours?

Usually the capt is the one asking to explain the PK (or getting the YC warning) so I can refer him to our pre match.