Red-carded ref

RugbyFish


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One of the local referees got red-carded :norc: and I think a 4 week ban after playing for his club's second XV. Are there any guidelines on how this affects his position as a referee or is this decision left to the local referee coordinator?

What do you think is the right decision? The red card was for retaliation (right in front of the ref - he should know better!)
 

didds

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I would imagine a VERY stern lecture from his society.

The reall issue is his future credibility as a ref to any teams/players that "know".

A medium term "ban" may be in order, just to let the incident fade away in the memories of the teams he would otherwise be reffing...

more for his own "protection" really

didds
 

Robert Burns

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Any ban received playing applies to ref'ing too.

I remember refereeing a game that Roy Maybank played in and asking him and DB after what would happen if he had been sent off. Hence I know the answer.
 

Robert Burns

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I would imagine a VERY stern lecture from his society.

The reall issue is his future credibility as a ref to any teams/players that "know".

A medium term "ban" may be in order, just to let the incident fade away in the memories of the teams he would otherwise be reffing...

more for his own "protection" really

didds

You cannot ban him for any longer than you would if he was 'just a player'.

Same way a policeman caught speeding doesn't get 6 points just because he's also a policeman.

Doing so would be discriminating against the person on grounds that were not applicable at the time of the event.

A stern word by chairman is not out of the question though.
 

RugbyFish


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Any ban received playing applies to ref'ing too.

I remember refereeing a game that Roy Maybank played in and asking him and DB after what would happen if he had been sent off. Hence I know the answer.

That makes sense. Is that in the laws somewhere?
 

RugbyFish


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You cannot ban him for any longer than you would if he was 'just a player'.

Same way a policeman caught speeding doesn't get 6 points just because he's also a policeman.

Doing so would be discriminating against the person on grounds that were not applicable at the time of the event.

A stern word by chairman is not out of the question though.

Not sure if this comparison works out - a policeman can loose his job for committing a crime where someone with a different job (or without a job) wouldn't.

I agree with you that a ref shouldn't receive a longer ban from playing than any other player though.
 

Simon Thomas


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I have had had to deal with exactly this situation twice when Chairman of the Society.

1. Society Referee playing for Vets, and gets double yellow - first for repeat offences at ruck and second for handbags.

On the Monday following we convene an emergency Society Disciplinary hearing - me, Hon Secretary, and Discipline Officer (a barrister) + CB Disc Chairman as an observer. We have Refs dismissal report and hear dismissed referee-player's evidence - suitably apologetic, etc.
We suspend him for two weeks immediately (and really p*ss off the Re-appts Sec :biggrin:), plus awaiting the CB Disciplinary Committee at the end of the month, and that if they give a longer sanction, he will serve the difference as an additional suspension from appointments.

He is given a serious dressing down and warned as to his future conduct whether it is appointed as a referee or playing. He is asked to send a letter of apology to his club and opposition club, plus CB Disciplinary Committee. He also sent one to the Society Committee.

Usual County Disciplinary hearing held two weeks later and he gets 3 weeks playing ban, so he gets extra week appointment suspension.

2. Society Referee playing for second XV - lots of questioning and dissent, which after a YC award for persistent ruck offences, leads to further dissent so upograded to RC, and then full-on touchline & post match abuse.

He ceased being a Society Referee the next day (three Committee guys on a phone confernce for 10 minutes having read the RC and abuse forms. He has not been seen since by us, nor his club who banned him for the rest of the season in his absence. The CB County Disciplinary Committee also banned hom for the rest of the season.
 

Dixie


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Same way a policeman caught speeding doesn't get 6 points just because he's also a policeman.
You might be surprised. You're probably right as regards driving offences, but in anything other than a strict liability matter, courts may well view the breach of trust and the superior knowledge of the law as aggravating factors, very often leading to harsher sentencing - mainly as a result of the disapplication of the normal mitigating factors.
 

Simon Thomas


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That makes sense. Is that in the laws somewhere?

No not in the Laws but in various regulations

The CB County Disciplinary sanctions are all in IRB and RFUI Handbooks - standard.

What the Society does is up to them, based on their Constitution and Rules, and with reference to the Home Union if necessary.
 

didds

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That's fair enough Robbie... maybe "ban" was the wrong word... i was more thinking about his own credibility going forward as a ref that was known for a bit of "afters" and how that may be best addressed for his OWN interests.

didds
 

andyscott


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I personally think you should be treated as a player, no different.

We are not there to have some moral high ground in this matter, we are there to apply the laws.

Its different to a position of trust in normal work life and that crimes call this into question.

If we are to take the moral high ground then surely any ref penalised under law 10 should be disciplined?
 

irishref


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When I read the first paragraph, I thought "jaysus, he's been banned simply for turning out for his team" - harsh in Germany!

:smile:

(PS: i hope to get some playing time in a couple of weeks for my club...)
 

Browner

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Martin Johnson's playing record didnt stop him becoming England head honcho !

Maybe Danny Grewcock, should be fasttracked by the RFU into refereeing??
 

Simon Thomas


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On a similar theme Wade Dooley, Mike Rafter and Buster White are current RFU Citing Officers - poachers turned gamekeepers !
 

Robert Burns

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That's fair enough Robbie... maybe "ban" was the wrong word... i was more thinking about his own credibility going forward as a ref that was known for a bit of "afters" and how that may be best addressed for his OWN interests.

didds

Agreed.

And RugbyFish, it can only affect their job if the punishment directly affects it, i.e. they are a traffic policeman and they have been banned from driving, but this would be the same if you were a delivery driver and banned.

Though no two incidents are exactly the same and the surrounding circumstances should be taken into account.

If a High Court Judge plays rugby and gets a Red Card in a game is that any less controversial than a referee getting sent off? We all know how frustrating it can be when you are playing and have a ref that's new who get's a few incidents wrong.

When in London we used to enter a team into the Park House Touch Rugby Comp, I felt for the individuals who refereed our teams as half the refs were terrible as players (in regards to backchat & dissent). (Especially one named after a water tradesman, Toby will know who I mean. :biggrin: )
 
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