Reds vs Waratahs

[Taff]

I thought that was an obvious penalty try, (which the TMO did imply), but Walsh didn't seem to want any of it. Will we see a correction or something?

Too late by now surely.

 

[didds]

well Dickie is of the opinion that walsh would be pilloried for giving a PT we are told.

Has anyone got a video clip of this incident as presumably the brief description does not cover what actually happened, because I cannot see any other outcome given dangerous play preventing a probable try? Unless of course it is widely held that kicking the ball out of a diving player's hands is not dangerous?

didds

 

[Coach Klein]

Why would Walsh have been pilloried for giving a penalty try?

 

[Dixie]

Why would Walsh have been pilloried for giving a penalty try?

Because in the SH, and Aus in particular, lots of tries = great game - even if it's as dull as basketball. Referee preventing lots of tries being scored = referee putting himself above the game. Ergo, deserving of being pilloried

 

[chbg]

SA Referees have included the incident in their next video batch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTiWC3kCJbQ&feature=em-uploademail
(hope that works).

How would you translate the TMO's comment: "in the act of scoring the try, the ball was kicked out by Red"? WTF? Surely "Prior to a try being scored, the ball was kicked out by Red".

 

[Ian_Cook]

Because in the SH, and Aus in particular, lots of tries = great game - even if it's as dull as basketball. Referee preventing lots of tries being scored = referee putting himself above the game. Ergo, deserving of being pilloried

Absolutely right.

If I had recorded a game and found out before I watched it that it had finished 18-12, all from penalty kicks, I would not even bother to waste my time watching it at all.

When I want to see a goal-kicking exhibition, I'll go down to the local park on Tuesday night training and watch our goal-kicker practising.

 

[Dickie E]

Why would Walsh have been pilloried for giving a penalty try?

Coach, assuming you've seen the video, would you have given a penalty try?

 

[Ian_Cook]

SA Referees have included the incident in their next video batch:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTiWC3kCJbQ&feature=em-uploademail
(hope that works)

I would rule this as a dead set penalty try,...all day...every day, and here's why

1. For any act not specified in the Laws as being dangerous, it is up to the referee as to whether HE considers the act dangerous,

2. I consider the act of kicking the ball out of an opponent's hands as dangerous play, and therefore by definition, foul play

3. The act of the player kicked the ball out of his opponent's hands prevented a try from being scored.

[LAWS]Law 22.4 OTHER WAYS TO SCORE A TRY
(h) Penalty try. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored but for foul play by the defending team. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored in a better position but for foul play by the defending team.[/LAWS]

 

[menace]

Absolutely right.

If I had recorded a game and found out before I watched it that it had finished 18-12, all from penalty kicks, I would not even bother to waste my time watching it at all.

When I want to see a goal-kicking exhibition, I'll go down to the local park on Tuesday night training and watch our goal-kicker practising.

Sounds like you just described an England vs Ireland game?

 

[menace]

I would rule this as a dead set penalty try,...all day...every day, and here's why

1. For any act not specified in the Laws as being dangerous, it is up to the referee as to whether HE considers the act dangerous,

2. I consider the act of kicking the ball out of an opponent's hands as dangerous play, and therefore by definition, foul play

3. The act of the player kicked the ball out of his opponent's hands prevented a try from being scored.

[LAWS]Law 22.4 OTHER WAYS TO SCORE A TRY
(h) Penalty try. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored but for foul play by the defending team. A penalty try is awarded if a try would probably have been scored in a better position but for foul play by the defending team.[/LAWS]

I wouldn't classify that particular instance as dangerous or foul play? And didn't look intentional either! If you look at the reds player he has eyes only for the man and looking to wrap him up, he's not even looking at the ball, and it appears to me he's getting his feet into a position to close him down once he's grasped the ball and it's in the act of getting his feet for balance that he dislodges the ball. I think more accidental than anything and surely only 'intentional' kick out of the hands can be a PK? I suspect that was Walsh's hesitation too after the TMO gave his 2 cents worth. Taking it from Walshes perspective with only one look at it at real time it certainly wasn't clear and obvious kick! IMHO It would have been a very harsh PT (and presumably YC to follow) if it had been given. I can understand why SW ignored the TMO about the kick. (ps and I was cheering for Tahs in the hope to get brumbies through to finals!)

 

[Dickie E]

I wouldn't classify that particular instance as dangerous or foul play? And didn't look intentional either! If you look at the reds player he has eyes only for the man and looking to wrap him up, he's not even looking at the ball, and it appears to me he's getting his feet into a position to close him down once he's grasped the ball and it's in the act of getting his feet for balance that he dislodges the ball. I think more accidental than anything and surely only 'intentional' kick out of the hands can be a PK? I suspect that was Walsh's hesitation too after the TMO gave his 2 cents worth. Taking it from Walshes perspective with only one look at it at real time it certainly wasn't clear and obvious kick! IMHO It would have been a very harsh PT (and presumably YC to follow) if it had been given. I can understand why SW ignored the TMO about the kick. (ps and I was cheering for Tahs in the hope to get brumbies through to finals!)

ditto

 

[TNT88]

I think everyone understands Walsh's decision, but do we stick with that interpretation? The in-goal checklist is already long enough, now we have to decipher whether someone intentionally kicking the ball out of an attacking players' hands was particularly dangerous before awarding a PT?

It's easier for the refs, and sends a clearer message to players if we just rule out using feet to stop tries being scored completely.

 

[Dickie E]

so if I'm held up in goal all I have to do is ground the ball on an opponent's foot to get a PT?

 

[TNT88]

Well no, Shipperly purposely got his foot in there: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HTiWC3kCJbQ#t=52s

If he had tried to tackle the blue player instead, it would have been a fair contest. (and he probably wouldn't have saved the try)

 

[crossref]

I think it was a PT - but then would I be obliged to issue a YC as well?
-- Instinctively I wouldn't want to YC for that.

 

[Davet]

You only need YC a PT if the offence was deliberate offending - if you feel it was an instinctive reaction you have a get out of gaol card.

 

[menace]

I think everyone understands Walsh's decision, but do we stick with that interpretation? The in-goal checklist is already long enough, now we have to decipher whether someone intentionally kicking the ball out of an attacking players' hands was particularly dangerous before awarding a PT?

It's easier for the refs, and sends a clearer message to players if we just rule out using feet to stop tries being scored completely.

Can't agree to that.

But if you listen to the tone of the TMO it sounds more like an explanation as to why it was not grounded rather than an "omg he recklessly kicked it out of his hands!!!"

 

[menace]

You only need YC a PT if the offence was deliberate offending - if you feel it was an instinctive reaction you have a get out of gaol card.

I'm not sure a i can see why an instinctive kick warrants a pt but not a yc?? An instinctive kick is still a deliberate act as far as I can see. So if you think a pt is warranted for kicking it out then surely you have to follow through that it was a deliberate act of foul play and the yc must follow (assuming you're inclined to follow law 10.2 to the letter).

 

[Davet]

How can you kick the ball out a players hands to preven him scoring a try?

If he is tackled short and immediately reaching it is specifically outlawed. PT and YC may well be appropriate.

If the player is carrying the ball - ie he has possession and the ball is not on the ground then I don't where on the pitch we are, that is dangerous play. PT and YC may be appropriate.

If the player has placed the ball on the ground then the try has already been scored - the kick doesn't change that.

 

[Davet]

If an act is instinctive then it is, by definition, NOT deliberate (ie premeditated). That the whole point, an instinctive reaction is an unthinking one, and therefore NOT deliberate.