RRF Clalirifaction Request - numbers in scrum at U19

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,815
Post Likes
3,153
So here is a another proposed clarification request from rugbyrefs.com, another common occurence, and an old chestnut with different opinions - would be great to have a ruling)

Background
In the U19 variations Law 20.1 (f) specifies that the number of players in the scrum from each team must always be equal.

Scenario 1 :
In an U19 match red v blue, the red fly-half is sent off.
At the next scrum the red #8 lines up on the backs, leaving seven red players in the scrum

Question 1 :
In this scenario are blue forced to match numbers in the scrum, ie also seven, or can blue insist that the red #8 takes part in the scrum so that there are eight players?

Scenario 2 :
In an U19 match red v blue, the red fly-half is sent off.
Before the next scrum red make a substitution, the #8 is taken off, and in his place comes on a replacement fly-half
At the next scrum the red lines up with seven red players in the scrum.

Question 2 : In this scenario are blue forced to match numbers in the scrum, ie also seven, or can blue insist that an additional red player takes part in the scrum so that there are eight players?
 

Simon Thomas


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Dec 3, 2003
Messages
12,848
Post Likes
189
not sure if it needs a clarification. Just use comon sense.

Scenario 1 : no swapping of #8 to replace fly half - he is a forward and stays playing as such.

Scenario 2 : if #8 is subbed, then it is with another forward
 

Robert Burns

, Referees in Canada, RugbyRefs.com Webmaster
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
9,650
Post Likes
7
While the common sense approach is correct Simon, and I agree with it all the way, it is not clear that the law prevents a team from doing what CrossRef states.

And your common sense of manage it will certainly not be the same as a coaches common sense of 'But why can't I do that?'
 

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,773
Post Likes
338
And some coaches are also refs ....
 

dave_clark


Referees in England
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,647
Post Likes
104
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
so know the laws backwards, and therefore how to manipulate them to pull the wool over a novice.

very different mindset between when you've got a whistle and when you haven't...
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,815
Post Likes
3,153
not sure if it needs a clarification. Just use comon sense.

Scenario 1 : no swapping of #8 to replace fly half - he is a forward and stays playing as such.

Scenario 2 : if #8 is subbed, then it is with another forward


Simon, you are managing it to achieve what you believe is the intention of the Lawmakers.

but I am asking what IS the intention of the Lawmakers!


and more specifically

Scenario 2 : if #8 is subbed, then it is with another forward

.. I think is a stretch. As 'forward' is not a registered person, like a front row forward is, I assume you mean
'if #8 is to be substutued then it is with another player who is willing to pack down in the scrum'

I think that to insist on that you should have a explicit law refernece.
 
Last edited:

Dixie


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2006
Messages
12,773
Post Likes
338
I think is a stretch. As 'forward' is not a registered person, like a front row forward is, I assume you mean
'if #8 is to be substutued then it is with another player who is willing to pack down in the scrum'

I think that to insist on that you should have a explicit law refernece.
Agreed. At the risk of inflaming the passions of Sad4Sam, Jamie Roberts packed down at flanker for most of Wales's RWC semi-final, wearing 13 on his back. My own group of U.16's had a centre who a year of so previously had played at #8 for the county until the distorting effects of early puberty unwound; would this lad be denied the opportunity of replacing a carded #8? If so .... why?
 

OB..


Referees in England
Staff member
Joined
Oct 7, 2004
Messages
22,981
Post Likes
1,838
Just for fun I googled "Clalirifaction" and got a hit.

(Isn't there some sort of challenge where you try to get just one google hit? :biggrin: )
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,815
Post Likes
3,153
Just for fun I googled "Clalirifaction" and got a hit.

(Isn't there some sort of challenge where you try to get just one google hit? :biggrin: )

it's a googlewhack . A pair of words that give one hit.
 

dave_clark


Referees in England
Joined
May 2, 2007
Messages
4,647
Post Likes
104
Current Referee grade:
Level 15 - 11
they've got to be real words with no quotation marks unfortunately :)
 

andyscott


Referees in England
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
3,117
Post Likes
55
Act contrary to good sportsmanship, send him off, job done.
 

Robert Burns

, Referees in Canada, RugbyRefs.com Webmaster
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
9,650
Post Likes
7
RugbyRefs.com would like a clarification on the Under 19 Variations of Law 20.

[LAWS]20.1 (f)
In an 8 person scrum the formation must be 3-4-1, with the single player (normally the Number 8) shoving on the 2 locks. The locks must pack with their heads on either side of the hooker.

Exception: A team must have fewer than eight players in its scrum when the team cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum due to either the team not fielding a complete team, or a forward player being sent off or temporarily suspended for foul play, or a forward player leaving the field because of injury.

Even allowing for this exception, each team must always have at least five players in a scrum.

If a team is incomplete and it cannot field eight suitably trained players in its scrum, the scrum formation must be as follows:

If a team is without one forward player, then both teams must use a 3-4 formation (i.e. no No.8).
If a team is without two forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2-1 formation (i.e. no flankers).
If a team is without three forward players, then both teams must use a 3-2 formation (i.e. only front rows and locks).

When a normal scrum takes place, the players in the three front row positions and the two lock positions must have been suitably trained for these positions.

If a team cannot field such suitably trained players because:
either they are not available, or
a player in one of those five positions is injured or
has been sent off for Foul Play and no suitably trained replacement is available, then the referee must order uncontested scrums.

In an uncontested scrum, the teams do not compete for the ball. The team putting in the ball must win it. Neither team is allowed to push the other team away from the mark.[/LAWS]

In the definitions of the game a Forward Player is not defined, although a Hooker & Prop are defined as Front Row players, and a Flanker defined as a Forward Player. A No. 8 is not defined at all.

Scenario 1 :
In an U19 match red v blue, the red fly-half is sent off.
At the next scrum the red #8 lines up on the backs, leaving seven red players in the scrum

Question 1 :
In this scenario are blue forced to match numbers in the scrum, ie also seven, or can blue insist that the red #8 takes part in the scrum so that there are eight players?

Scenario 2 :
In an U19 match red v blue, the red fly-half is sent off.
Before the next scrum red make a substitution, the #8 is taken off, and in his place comes on a replacement fly-half
At the next scrum the red lines up with seven red players in the scrum.

Question 2 :
In this scenario are blue forced to match numbers in the scrum, ie also seven, or can blue insist that an additional red player takes part in the scrum so that there are eight players?


Agree?
 
Last edited:

Robert Burns

, Referees in Canada, RugbyRefs.com Webmaster
Staff member
Joined
Nov 10, 2003
Messages
9,650
Post Likes
7
Just discussing this with a friend and they pointed me to Law Clarification:

[h=2]Ruling in Law by the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee[/h]Ruling
6-2009
Union
ARU
Law Reference
Law application guidelines, 20
Date
10 August '09

This Clarification was incorporated into Law in 2009

[h=2]Request[/h]1. The U19 Law Variation refers to a team having fewer than eight players in its scrum when “…the team cannot field a complete team, or a player sent off for Foul Play, or a player leaves the field because of injury.” Does this Law Variation also apply if a player is cautioned and temporarily suspended (yellow card)?

2. The U19 law Variation refers to both teams using reduced numbers of players in the scrum formation if “…a team is incomplete…” because it is without one, two or three players. No distinction is made between forward players and back players. If a No. 15 is sent off early in a match, must both teams play with seven players in the scrum, even though both teams still have eight players suitably trained and capable of playing in the scrum?

3. If a team cannot field a complete team because it is short one or more forward player, but that team is able to provide form the available players suitably trained players to contest scrums, may the game proceed/continue with eight player scrums per team?
[h=2]Ruling of the Designated Members of the Rugby Committee[/h]The complete team is a reference to having eight players who can play in the scrum. If a forward leaves the field of play for any reason and cannot be replaced due to injury, sending off, temporary suspension or any other reason then both teams must reduce the number of players in the scrum so that there are equal numbers in both teams at the scrum.

If any player in the other than a forward has to leave the field for any reason and cannot be replaced there will be no reduction in the players playing in the scrum.


I have made red & bold the bit that you seek.
 

crossref


Referees in England
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Messages
21,815
Post Likes
3,153
good find!

sigh -- but typically IRB like

- although it says 'THIS CLARIFICATION WAS INCORPORATED INTO LAW IN 2009' --- Actually it wasn't!

- the red text does answer my question. Even though this text WASN'T incorporated in the Law, I guess it still stands, as a valid clarification

- note that the ARU's questions weren't really answerd

the IRB deals with the question of a back being sent off -- play eight man scrums. That was my sceanrio

the IRB don't really deal with the question of a forward being sent off, the ARU asked if the team with 14 who still have forwards on the bench was either allowed to, or required to make a substitution to ensure that there are still eight in the scrum. The IRB didn't really answer that question.
 
Last edited:
Top