Rugby union's referees left exposed

[FlipFlop]

Brian,

Perhaps you should go and look at the "trial" being carried out in France.

Actions des joueurs / Séquences d’engagement en mêlée sans impact
• Commandements de l’arbitre : 4 Temps = Flexion - Placement - Stop - Prêt.
• Au 1er commandement « flexion », les joueurs de 1ère ligne fléchissent les jambes et non le dos, et
« imbriquent » leur tête en quinconce sans s’engager (pas de tête en contact avec l’épaule du vis-à-vis),
les 2èmes lignes et les 3èmes lignes ailes mettent au moins un genou au sol, le 3ème ligne centre n’a pas
obligation de mettre un genou au sol. Temps d’arrêt.
• Au 2ème commandement « placement », les piliers se placent sans impact en se liant à leur vis-à-vis par
le bras extérieur, les joueurs de 2ème et 3ème ligne se placent ; les joueurs peuvent alors
repositionner leurs appuis (hauts et bas) ; l’arbitre s’assure de la stabilité de la mêlée et
valide les postures des joueurs (épaules au-dessus du bassin et dos plat) ; temps d’arrêt.
• Au 3ème commandement « stop », les joueurs maintiennent leur position sans avancer en
attendant l’introduction du ballon (stabilité de la mêlée).
• Au 4ème commandement « prêt », le demi de mêlée introduit sans délai (maximum 3 secondes).

Or in essence:
1: Crouch. FRs to have interlocking heads. 2nd Row and Flankers to have 1 knee on ground (minimum)
2: Engage. FRs engage without force. Players can reset their bindings. Referee to ensure scrum is stable.
3: Stop. All players must stop, and hold their position
4: Play. Scrum half must put ball in within 3 seconds.

Applies to most games at or below Federale 2.

I'll be refereeing this in early December, so can feedback then, but perhaps if you want to keep banging the drum, you get a nice visit to France, try some Red Wine (I'm sure you can find a game in teh right wine region! :smile, and see how it works in practice?

But it seems to have what you want. No Hit. Scrum Stable before put in. SH not obliged to put the ball in "without delay" after the engage. And by getting everything in place, the ref can actually watch/police the feed etc.

 

[OB..]

My discussion around this reveal an alarming point regarding eltie officials - fear of 'getting it from all and sundry' if they do things to the letter of the law.

In a sense they are in fact following the letter of the law. NIgel Owens in particular tells the scrum half to throw the ball in "as soon as the front rows have come together" (Law 20.5). That sentence needs removing from the law book so that referees can concentrate on

[LAWS]Law 20.1 (j) Stationary and parallel. Until the ball leaves the scrum half’s hands, the scrum must be stationary and the middle line must be parallel to the goal lines. A team must not shove the scrum away from the mark before the ball is thrown in.[/LAWS]
That in itself would remove a lot of the perceived value in winning the hit.

Keep banging the drum, Brian. A lot of us are lining up behind you with our penny whistles.

 

[didds]

1: Crouch. ... 2nd Row and Flankers to have 1 knee on ground (minimum)

Now I was always told that was dangeropus because if accidents occur and one side engage early and shove early teh 2nds rows are now trapped being bent back over their pelvis' as their front row is shoved back.

didds

 

[OB..]

Now I was always told that was dangeropus because if accidents occur and one side engage early and shove early teh 2nds rows are now trapped being bent back over their pelvis' as their front row is shoved back.

didds

I can see that might be a problem if only one team was kneeling, but if both do it the power of any early drive is much less. I suppose the point of kneeling is that they cannot then push.

 

[tevisv]

So, what is the solution then? I'm a former hooker as well, with my last game played in the spring of 2005. The highest level that I played was Super League (some mop up duty...I'm honest), but like others, I have a recurring neck issue as well. My chiro loves me! Anyways, after watching some video from the 70s and 80s, why can't we go back to something like that? Or what the French are trialing? This keeps the scrums relevant, involved in the game and it brings stable scrums back. But let's face it, even if we do go back to how things were done before "the hit" was emphasized, front row players still got hurt from scrummaging.

 

[Ciaran Trainor]

Actullly had "They're not taking the hit Sir" on Saturday. I reminded the FR that there was no such thing and the scrum half can only put the ball in when it the scrum was statioary and over the mark.
Got a few quizical looks and the game was by no means perfect but Hey i'll keep trying.
BCM please keep pushing this. can't see any ref arguing for the hit and the spectators might be able to see scrummaging as part of the game again

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

We had a Society "workshop" with the FRs of a Championship side near me (two guesses!). It was to help us better understand FR "practice"

Their take on things was interesting and gave an insight into the dark arts of the FR.

I was left with one abiding thought however - 90% of what they said they did was cheating!!

 

[Womble]

We had a Society "workshop" with the FRs of a Championship side near me (two guesses!). It was to help us better understand FR "practice"

Their take on things was interesting and gave an insight into the dark arts of the FR.

I was left with one abiding thought however - 90% of what they said they did was cheating!!

Think they pulled the wool over your eyes! only 90%?epper:

 

[Lee Lifeson-Peart]

Think they pulled the wool over your eyes! only 90%?epper:

Who said that? :biggrin:

 

[bcm666]

The one thing that might finally force this situation to be brought back under control is the legal liability that will now rest with the IRB and by extension their Unions. I have had this confirmed from several sports lawyers , including 2 QCs, and they concur that after Watson v BBBC governing bodies have clear responsibility to take all reasonable steps to ensure safety.

Their own research cannot be ignored nor can things like the complaints that are being made about junior and youth/mini rugby. if you want to help you should ask your society to keep a file of problems notified about the scrum by you, your colleagues and club etc. The contents should pedridoically , say each month, be sent electronicallyh to the RFU and IRB referees departments. That way a block of ntofiications of promblems builds up which they cannot ignore. i am going to cut and paste all comments and tweets that give such information.

I have today had three long messages from former pro players who detail the gradual changing of the scrum confirming the hit has become a major problem - these will go to the relevant people as well.

As i have said recently I don't care now whether this makes me or anyone else unpopular - things are too serious to be bothered about that. Elite referees have shown they cannot be trusted to make the right calls and they now have to be made to do it. when I hear about under 12s and the like being affected it makes me angry and scared.

Regarding the hit - I used to be in favour of retaining it as it was when I played but i now think that eltie referee and coaches and players cannot be trusted not to return to some form of aggresive hit and if the only way to ensure they don't is to have some form of sequential engagement, then so be it.

 

[OB..]

The one thing that might finally force this situation to be brought back under control is the legal liability that will now rest with the IRB and by extension their Unions. I have had this confirmed from several sports lawyers , including 2 QCs, and they concur that after Watson v BBBC governing bodies have clear responsibility to take all reasonable steps to ensure safety.

Their own research cannot be ignored nor can things like the complaints that are being made about junior and youth/mini rugby. if you want to help you should ask your society to keep a file of problems notified about the scrum by you, your colleagues and club etc. The contents should pedridoically , say each month, be sent electronicallyh to the RFU and IRB referees departments. That way a block of ntofiications of promblems builds up which they cannot ignore. i am going to cut and paste all comments and tweets that give such information.

I have today had three long messages from former pro players who detail the gradual changing of the scrum confirming the hit has become a major problem - these will go to the relevant people as well.

As i have said recently I don't care now whether this makes me or anyone else unpopular - things are too serious to be bothered about that. Elite referees have shown they cannot be trusted to make the right calls and they now have to be made to do it. when I hear about under 12s and the like being affected it makes me angry and scared.

Regarding the hit - I used to be in favour of retaining it as it was when I played but i now think that eltie referee and coaches and players cannot be trusted not to return to some form of aggresive hit and if the only way to ensure they don't is to have some form of sequential engagement, then so be it.

I have passed your post on to my society to see if they will take up your idea.

BTW I don't think it helps trying to pin the blame on elite referees. They will change if their coaches, assessors, and appointments officers say so. Referees are only the visible tip of the iceberg, and the whole thing needs to change direction before the Titanic arrives.

 

[Thomond78]

I wrote an article on this with respect to the maul ELV three years ago. Applies all the more in this case. There is a definite liability; in fact, there was an Australian case on this 12 years ago, where it was the status of the IRB at the time (now changed) which prevented liability being found. Now, I reckon you'd bring it home on a slack rein.

 

[bcm666]

I wrote an article on this with respect to the maul ELV three years ago. Applies all the more in this case. There is a definite liability; in fact, there was an Australian case on this 12 years ago, where it was the status of the IRB at the time (now changed) which prevented liability being found. Now, I reckon you'd bring it home on a slack rein.

http://rugbylaw.blogspot.ie/2012/10/legal-liability-and-scrums.html - and it has gone down very well on Twitter attracting comment from rugby fans across the world

 

[bcm666]

I have passed your post on to my society to see if they will take up your idea.

BTW I don't think it helps trying to pin the blame on elite referees. They will change if their coaches, assessors, and appointments officers say so. Referees are only the visible tip of the iceberg, and the whole thing needs to change direction before the Titanic arrives.

Fair point and by sending information to those bodies it will focus them, but nothing it more likely to do this than the referees themselves turning round and saying change must happen because we are getting all the flak and, by the way, we are first in line legally!

 

[Thomond78]

http://rugbylaw.blogspot.ie/2012/10/legal-liability-and-scrums.html - and it has gone down very well on Twitter attracting comment from rugby fans across the world

I suppose Agent will be tapping up Counsel for a bottle of Bakkies* somewhere on Fleet Street for this?


*Rough, South African, red...

 

[Dixie]

BTW I don't think it helps trying to pin the blame on elite referees. They will change if their coaches, assessors, and appointments officers say so. Referees are only the visible tip of the iceberg, and the whole thing needs to change direction before the Titanic arrives.

You are right that there needs to be direction from the top, but that in itself is not enough. We saw this at a previous RWC (2007?) where Paddy O'Brien made it plain that if elite referees continued to be lax on scrum feeds and a few other things, they would not get selected. But the refs knew that if they started blowing up for these offences, their negative reports would make it impossible to get selected anyway - so called Paddy's bluff. He caved, and the usually suspects officiated despite ignoring his clarion call.

 

[Simon Thomas]

be sent electronically to the RFU and IRB referees departments.

Brian, great idea and no problem with the IRB but there is one with the RFU !

Unfortunately the RFU executive decided to unilaterally disband the RFU Referees' Dept and make the key personnel redundant in the late summer. A few specialist referee development staff have been retained in the new RFU Development Department where match officials are now rolled up with player, coach and medical development.

Those refereeing specialists who have been retained are now involved more in player and coaching development than match officials, and working hard to prove their worth. The whole focus of the department is on training & development so I suspect any communications will fall on stony ground or into a black hole. There are three referee development specialists but they operate at L5 and Panel levels only.

I know (as does Phil E) a number of the key ex-refs dept folks still in place at the RFU and will contact them off-the-record to get advice as to the best route in and whom to target.

I will raise your suggestion at our next Society Committee meeting and see how we can help move this forward - taking the hit out the scrum is a crucial objective at all levels - I like the French solution.

 

[OB..]

The RFU reorganisation has got rid of a Referees Department as such. Has it also got rid of the Referees Union?

 

[Womble]

Think not OB, why you ask?

 

[Simon Thomas]

The RFU reorganisation has got rid of a Referees Department as such. Has it also got rid of the Referees Union?

OB - the RFRU exists (very much so with increased involvement) and was an integral part of the major "pushback" on this re-organisation, plus some mitigation/dilution of the original plans. Happy to discuss some details in private with you as I have been quite heavily involved since the news originally broke in July.

RFRU exists constitutionally so cannot be removed by the Executive, only by the full Council. It was a concern before and after the Slaughter & May Review of RFU Governance but so far messages coming out of HQ are that lots of those recommendations are being watered down.

Perhaps the RFU paid staff have begun to realise just how much work the volunteers actually do !