Scrum half engagement seqence

[breako]

Is it ok for refs to say to the scrummie "Yes nine", or must it only be a visual signal? Or does it vary from ref to ref.

 

[crossref]

breako
- this one isn't in the Laws, and there is no consistency in the IRB videos that show the engagement sequence.

So it's a guidance thing, not a Law thing

In England the RFU have said that they want signals to be non-verbal and the London Society told us all (in line with RFU guidance I am sure) that we should use tap on the back when on the SH side, and a signal when on the other side. So far as I know every English Society issued the same instructions

I think the last time we discussed this refs in other couintries said their advice differed, so you might want a Irish response to your quesiton

 

[thepercy]

breako
- this one isn't in the Laws, and there is no consistency in the IRB videos that show the engagement sequence.

So it's a guidance thing, not a Law thing

In England the RFU have said that they want signals to be non-verbal and the London Society told us all (in line with RFU guidance I am sure) that we should use tap on the back when on the SH side, and a signal when on the other side. So far as I know every English Society issued the same instructions

I think the last time we discussed this refs in other couintries said their advice differed, so you might want a Irish response to your quesiton

In the USA we do the same as the above, except for U19 we still say Yes9.

 

[Pinky]

IRB asked for a non-verbal signal in the main, IIRC

 

[menace]

so you might want a Irish response to your quesiton

Put 3 shovels in front of him and ask him to take his pick?:shrug:
epper:

Ps in ARU land we say nothing nor touch nothing. (Except some refs watch too much elite level and I against the guidance and tell them or touch them)

 

[Ian_Cook]

Ps in ARU land we say nothing nor touch nothing. (Except some refs watch too much elite level and I against the guidance and tell them or touch them)

So how do you give the SH the signal if you are standing behind him?

 

[Dickie E]

So how do you give the SH the signal if you are standing behind him?

we don't give any signal. SH feeds at his discretion (like in the old days)

 

[menace]

we don't give any signal. SH feeds at his discretion (like in the old days)

We only tell him if he's delaying....like the old days.

 

[Ronald]

In South Africa we were told to use non-verbal signs...either pat on the back or sign if you are on the opposite side of the scrum.

 

[OB..]

we don't give any signal. SH feeds at his discretion (like in the old days)

I assume you see no signs of teams devising tricky ways to take advantage?

 

[Browner]

I ask the 9 to turn & look over his shoulder at me, thereby utilisising a consistent non verbal signal irrespective of my positioning at the scrum.

Works fine, with the added gain of the time it takes him to turn & tap his hookers hand allows me time to step back and get a good view of the put in going nice and straight ! ( and they are told this @PMB so it's no surprise to them either way)

Ps.....The flashpoint of being tapped by his oppo ....has redundant value .

 

[Dixie]

we don't give any signal. SH feeds at his discretion (like in the old days)

Fascinating. The purpose of requiring scrummagers to await the signal was to prevent "hit and drive". ARU presumably doesn't perceive that as a problem (presumably because all the fat boys have already fallen over by that point).

 

[menace]

I assume you see no signs of teams devising tricky ways to take advantage?

Wasn't that the reason they went from "Yes 9 " to a signal so the slight advantage swung back to the feed side?

Otherwise, In my games I'd seen no more "trickiness" than with the signal? If a side push early anticipating the feed then they're knocked off, or if the SH delays the feed when it's steady to try and get the non feed side to push early then he's knocked off for delaying (after usual warnings..blah blah). If the feed side try a 'hit and chase' feed then they're knocked off for it. They adjust quickly. It's just not an issue at the grassroots level that they need a signal when to feed it.

And let's face it, at the elite level I still see more often than not the refs giving the signal when the scrum isn't steady...they just go through the motions of the cadence with what the SH is doing not what the FR is doing.

 

[didds]

That explains it a little better menace... but (I have probably misunderstood!) you are now in teh area of the S/H having to second guess the ref's perception?

If the sh genuinely thinks the scrum is stationary and puts in - but the ref doesn't... FK.

Or the opposite view also sees a FK...

didds

 

[crossref]

And let's face it, at the elite level I still see more often than not the refs giving the signal when the scrum isn't steady...they just go through the motions of the cadence with what the SH is doing not what the FR is doing.

I agree with this.
In my grass roots -games none of this makes a difference really : the teams don't really mess about, and if they do mess about I give a warning or a FK and they don't do it again. But generally it seems that both teams are glad the 'hit' went away and want to actually scrummage, with the ball roughly straight and the scrum stable and stationary. That way its more fun and safer.

its at pro level where both sides seem intent on not scrummaging properly, and it's to control this game that the IRB gives out all the guidance and management tools .... that the pro refs don't seem to use.

 

[didds]

exactly.

the tiny percentage of elite players dictating how the vast majority of grass roots players have to play.

didds

 

[menace]

That explains it a little better menace... but (I have probably misunderstood!) you are now in teh area of the S/H having to second guess the ref's perception?

If the sh genuinely thinks the scrum is stationary and puts in - but the ref doesn't... FK.

Or the opposite view also sees a FK...

didds

Funnily enough not really an issue...

If it's not steady and SH puts it in...stop and reset it and remind SH to ensure it's steady. Next time FK.
If steady and they don't put in then we tell them 'in now 9' (Like the law says we can do) and they usually comply. If they continue to delay feed on a clear and obvious steady scrum (and we can all pick those!) then they get knocked off.

Usually one warning and they learn, one FK and they stop it.

 

[RobLev]

I assume you see no signs of teams devising tricky ways to take advantage?

Like not feeding until his pack has a shove on?

 

[Dickie E]

Fascinating. The purpose of requiring scrummagers to await the signal was to prevent "hit and drive". ARU presumably doesn't perceive that as a problem (presumably because all the fat boys have already fallen over by that point).

IMHO the CBS call has done the job of eliminating "hit & drive"

 

[Browner]

IMHO the CBS call has done the job of eliminating "hit & drive"

Generally agree.

However, what % of the 2nd part has been acheived ?

IRB - may 2013.... Referees will be stricter

IRB Chairman Bernard Lapasset said: “The scrum is a fundamental and dynamic part of our Game. It is important that we continue to promote the best possible player welfare standards and this trial process is about putting players first and delivering a reduction of the forces on engagement at elite level, which could have significant positive effects on long-term player welfare.”

“The global implementation of this trial is a forward step, which will be subject to continual monitoring and evaluation. I would like to thank all Unions for their support and enthusiasm throughout this process.”

Coupled with the process, the IRB will instruct referees to ensure that the ball does not enter the tunnel unless the scrum is square and stationary and that a straight throw-in is strictly policed.

Lapasset added: “The implementation of the revised sequence alone is not about overcoming all the challenges of the elite scrum but it is a forward step. There is a collective responsibility for coaches, players and administrators to make the scrum a positive, fair and, above all, safe contest. Match officials will be stricter when refereeing the existing law.”