Fed up ...

[nealed]

There is a U16 Yorkshire Cup semi-final in South Yorkshire this weekend. The call from the Sunday Appts guy went out for a TO3 to do this match. It now appears that we have appointed a TO4 all at L7 and above with a iRB AR refereeing (I think - based on the first call)!!! All because they (the home team) are considered "challenging". I am not party to all the facts (and indeed the Appt guys suggests the TO4 is "out of his hands")however from what I can see there are at least two routes that have led to this, either as a Society we know what they're like and have appointed accordingly or the club know what they're like and have asked for this or perhaps the CB. Whatever way the decision was arrived at I am appalled that i) There is a need for this level of experience/expertise for a U16 game for reasons not really connected to "Rugby" ii)That we as a Society and/or the club concerned and/or the CB are treating the symptoms of the "disease" rather than the cause.

IF they are that bad what are they doing still playing Rugby. It stinks!

Like I say this is the view I have and I may be missing something. I will ask Hon Soc Sec what the deal is when he assesses me a week on Saturday.:biggrin:

Lee
another assessment
what have you done to deserve this honour??

imo that particular home side are not that bad
we are also at home in other YC semi and i think we may also have a TO3 tho i may be wrong

 

[Adam]

Lee
another assessment
what have you done to deserve this honour??

imo that particular home side are not that bad
we are also at home in other YC semi and i think we may also have a TO3 tho i may be wrong

I don't think you have as I was at your place today, speaking to a Nat Panel AR who's refereeing it and he said he was on his own.

 

[dave_clark]

IIRC, Essex try to appoint a To3 to their youth cup semi finals.

 

[ballsie]

I have a colts fixture under 19 two reasonable teams with good support, done the home side twice this season already nothing dramatic, however the visiting side cancelled at one hours notice last time I was due to referee them so making sure my phone is switched on.....
We have a mini festival at my own club so waiting to see what occurs there as far as referee advising goes.
there wont be much sunday rugby soon if ill informed parents or spectators dont lay off.
Got a colts league game next week too...

 

[ballsie]

Levels 4 or what ever are no shield against the OAP you could have Wayne Barnes in the centre and he still would get stick. the numptys would even know who he was anyway.........
IMOH total over kill for an under 16 game however not my call, this is youth rugyb and again imho they aint rugby players till they reach 17 up till then they are kids playing rugby..
What difference does a ill informed parent, coach see in a higher level referee, just a bigger target to aim at...

 

[PaulDG]

Levels 4 or what ever are no shield against the OAP you could have Wayne Barnes in the centre and he still would get stick. the numptys would even know who he was anyway.........
IMOH total over kill for an under 16 game however not my call, this is youth rugyb and again imho they aint rugby players till they reach 17 up till then they are kids playing rugby..
What difference does a ill informed parent, coach see in a higher level referee, just a bigger target to aim at...

That's not the point.

The point is that the higher level referees are, in part, higher level referees because they're able to take more of the cr*p.

None of them are in any doubt at all that any action they take will be right in Law, none of them are in any doubt at all that they'll get full backing from their society, CB, group and the RFU should any complaints be made.

None of them is in danger of saying "f*** it, I'm never going to give up my Sunday mornings ever again.."

It doesn't matter that the spectators don't know who they are. They know who they are.

 

[nealed]

I don't think you have as I was at your place today, speaking to a Nat Panel AR who's refereeing it and he said he was on his own.

darren will have to put his water skis on me thinks

 

[ballsie]

That's not the point.

The point is that the higher level referees are, in part, higher level referees because they're able to take more of the cr*p.

None of them are in any doubt at all that any action they take will be right in Law, none of them are in any doubt at all that they'll get full backing from their society, CB, group and the RFU should any complaints be made.

None of them is in danger of saying "f*** it, I'm never going to give up my Sunday mornings ever again.."

It doesn't matter that the spectators don't know who they are. They know who they are.

Why So patronising just because you arent a high level referee doesnt mean you can't take the crap
Just when was a high level referee called a cheat in a club house bar and walked away from it head held high or told in the car park he is a disgrace
I have lost count of the times I have wanted to deck some one but no I wear believe me I know of at least one guy that has when he was spat on mind that was a while ago
Come down from that ivory tower and personaly I have never had any doubt that my own society would support me or any level referee should the need arise
If you are doubting the society support then maybe a change of management in that society would be a good idea

 

[crossref]

Come down from that ivory tower and personaly I have never had any doubt that my own society would support me or any level referee should the need arise

as a club-ref and non-Society member, I am not confident that the local Society would want to get involved. I suspect they would say 'nothing to do with us' and would advise us to pursue any incident via the club, CB disciplinary process, direct to RFU etc. But not via Society. (Just my expectation)

 

[Simon Thomas]

That's not the point.

The point is that the higher level referees are, in part, higher level referees because they're able to take more of the cr*p.

None of them are in any doubt at all that any action they take will be right in Law, none of them are in any doubt at all that they'll get full backing from their society, CB, group and the RFU should any complaints be made.

None of them is in danger of saying "f*** it, I'm never going to give up my Sunday mornings ever again.."It doesn't matter that the spectators don't know who they are. They know who they are.

I had not intended making it public knowledge on here, but based on PaulDG's comment above which I disagree with, two weeks ago I withdrew from reffing Colts rugby on Sunday's after some spectator based incidents I experienced in my games and others I had reported to me from other matches at U16 and U14 those weekends - so here you have a current L9, who was a L6, is a current L5 Assessor, and someone who played at pretty serious levels (and also happens to be the current Society Chairman, where I need to be objective in my decision making) making that choice.

This season I have had three Society referees stop doing Sunday matches as it was interfering with their Saturday games and development / grade promotion potential.

I am involved in rugby as a volunteer, and for enjoyment. I made it very clear to the CB Governance Committee last Wednesday why I have made my choice, and the expectations for them as CB to sort out the offending clubs and their spectators (coaches and players are mostly ok) or the are not going to get any Society referees prepared to do Sunday's and also Club Referees increasingly hesitant to do certain matches.

 

[ballsie]

as a club-ref and non-Society member, I am not confident that the local Society would want to get involved. I suspect they would say 'nothing to do with us' and would advise us to pursue any incident via the club, CB disciplinary process, direct to RFU etc. But not via Society. (Just my expectation)

Well i am lucky mine will

 

[dave_clark]

just out of interest, why would the society get involved? it's not an appointment they've made, quite often the referee will be nothing to do with them, surely it's not the society's problem?

i'm with crossref, in that i suspect the local society would not want to get involved.

on the same matter, my club sources refs on a regular basis from two societies (Essex and London). which society should i choose if i want to report something through them?

 

[Simon Thomas]

as a club-ref and non-Society member, I am not confident that the local Society would want to get involved. I suspect they would say 'nothing to do with us' and would advise us to pursue any incident via the club, CB disciplinary process, direct to RFU etc. But not via Society. (Just my expectation)

Total b*llox.

My Society will (and has numerous times) supported Club Referees in youth disciplinary cases when referee abuse / dissent / spectators behaviour is involved.
If your Society doesn't, perhaps you aren't asking them ?
And they would be correct to refer you to Club in first instance for normal dismissal cases.

We have regularly advised Club Referees and Society Refs appointed as Club Refs on request - some don't ask for help.

Youth discipline (except direct referee abuse (CB) or Safeguarding (RFU)) is a Club / Youth Committee responsibility, whereas Adults, and in our CB Colts, is a CB discipline issue

 

[crossref]

I had not intended making it public knowledge on here, but based on PaulDG's comment above which I disagree with, two weeks ago I withdrew from reffing Colts rugby on Sunday's after some spectator based incidents I experienced in my games and others I had reported to me from other matches at U16 and U14 those weekends - so here you have a current L9, who was a L6, is a current L5 Assessor, and someone who played at pretty serious levels (and also happens to be the current Society Chairman, where I need to be objective in my decision making) making that choice.

it's a funny world, isn't it, because today our Colts manager approached me and asked me if I would consider perhaps reffing a Colts game before the end of the season..

I am certain Simon is several orders of magnitude a better ref than me, and vastly more experienced... yet somehow looks like I am the one who is going to out there.. that can't be right for the game.. something is going wrong.

 

[crossref]

Total b*llox.

My Society will (and has numerous times) supported Club Referees in youth disciplinary cases when referee abuse / dissent / spectators behaviour is involved.
If your Society doesn't, perhaps you aren't asking them ?

you are right I haven't asked them. Perhaps I am doing them a disservice, I am feeling a little down on them at the moment, since they refused to have me as a member

 

[dave_clark]

it's a funny world, isn't it, because today our Colts manager approached me and asked me if I would consider perhaps reffing a Colts game before the end of the season..

don't your colts and other senior youth teams request referees from the local society? mine don't either (unless i do it for them), which is bloody annoying.

 

[crossref]

don't your colts and other senior youth teams request referees from the local society? mine don't either (unless i do it for them), which is bloody annoying.

they get them for league games. Not always available for friendlies.

 

[Simon Thomas]

just out of interest, why would the society get involved? it's not an appointment they've made, quite often the referee will be nothing to do with them, surely it's not the society's problem?

i'm with crossref, in that i suspect the local society would not want to get involved.

on the same matter, my club sources refs on a regular basis from two societies (Essex and London). which society should i choose if i want to report something through them?

as we are increasingly getting involved with the CRefC programme, Societies are getting more inolved with Club Referees. This was specifically discussed and encouraged at October's RFU Society Managers conference at Warwick Uni.

However a basic red card dismissal is not a Society issue (it is a club one).

 

[crossref]

as we are increasingly getting involved with the CRefC programme, Societies are getting more inolved with Club Referees. This was specifically discussed and encouraged at October's RFU Society Managers conference at Warwick Uni.

However a basic red card dismissal is not a Society issue (it is a club one).

in my comment when I said i wasn't confident of receinving Society support for club-refs, I was meaning situations of ref abuse, rather than red cards.

I am pleased that Hants Soc are getting involved with the CrefC programme and Club Refs, the London Soc - so far as I can tell - have little or no interest in them.

 

[Simon Thomas]

in my comment when I said i wasn't confident of receinving Society support for club-refs, I was meaning situations of ref abuse, rather than red cards.

I am pleased that Hants Soc are getting involved with the CrefC programme and Club Refs, the London Soc - so far as I can tell - have little or no interest in them.

Again not true - I have regular contact and discussions with Tim Miller, Nick Cousins, Bob Ockendon and Ed Turnill who are involved in running London Society, and I know from them that London Society has done lots of work on clubs CRefC schemes (including support at Ealing, Harrow in setting up full Club Societies) in all their 'regions'. perhaps it is just that your club and London haven't engaged yet. Has anyone asked them directly to work with your club in CRefC area ?