Kick At Goal - Ball Over Top Of Post

[TheBFG]

so that we don't have any dispute an hour later when there's only 2 points in it!

No dispute as to if it's given or not, i'd have blown my whistle and put an arm up if it was good, or did nothing if it missed, simples :shrug:

 

[crossref]

No dispute as to if it's given or not, i'd have blown my whistle and put an arm up if it was good, or did nothing if it missed, simples :shrug:

so one TJ flags over - - you are perfectly confident that everyone has noticed you, um, doing nothing at all ?

an hour later when someone says - but that second conversion went over? you'll say - but didn't didn't you notice me doing nothing?



For me, if one TJ flags up, one TJ flags down, I'm always going to make double sure that both captains understand what my decision was.

 

[Pinky]

so one TJ flags over - - you are perfectly confident that everyone has noticed you, um, doing nothing at all ?

an hour later when someone says - but that second conversion went over? you'll say - but didn't didn't you notice me doing nothing?



For me, if one TJ flags up, one TJ flags down, I'm always going to make double sure that both captains understand what my decision was.

I generally ask TJs to agree if it was over or not and say if they don't agree, please tell me and I'll decide.

 

[Ian_Cook]

You usually only see the one up one down situation when there are really short posts and the ball crosses higher that the posts, and/or the ball goes very close to one post.

If that happens, I would go with the TJ who is closest to the post nearest the ball.

 

[ChrisR]

To me it makes sense for the TJs to flag what they see. If it's inside your post and over the bar stick your flag up. If it's outside your post wave the flag at knee level and then point to the outside. If it's inside your post but under the bar wave at knee level and point the flag down at the ground. If it's clearly outside the other post let the other guy wave it off.

Their flags may disagree with a ball directly over a post or possibly a ball under the bar. If it's a post issue take the flag of the guy on that post as he'll be the one waving it off. Under/over issue you'd better go have a chat.

 

[didds]

i thought the protocol was no flag wav at all for a miss?

didds

 

[The Fat]

i thought the protocol was no flag wav at all for a miss?

didds

Exactly

 

[OB..]

i thought the protocol was no flag wav at all for a miss?

didds

That is what some people keep trying to insist on. It presumably works well at levels where ARs are trained to operateas a team (otherwise they would not stick to it, I hope). However at lower levels it is quite different, as already explained.

 

[TigerCraig]

That is what some people keep trying to insist on. It presumably works well at levels where ARs are trained to operateas a team (otherwise they would not stick to it, I hope). However at lower levels it is quite different, as already explained.

Obviously its different for us here, as anyone with a flag in their hand - especially in juniors - is by definition an AR with at least a Level 1 Accreditation.

The basic protocol is for both teams AR's to make themselves know to the referee before the game, preferably show their accreditation cards (their number has to be written on the result sheet), and for the referee to then brief them together on what he wants from them. If a club doesnt have an accredited AR (which I've never come across in the last 3 years or so), then the other club has a right to provide both AR's, and the non-compliant club is open to fines and point docking

For me at least the pre-match includes something like - "I don't want either of you to raise your flag on a goal kick until you've spoken and agreed. If you don't agree call me over and I'll make a call".

The great majority of club AR's I come across take the role very seriously - have their own flags, and in many cases either a special shirt or vest provided by their club to show their status. Rugby being such a small world here you will generally work with the same guys a number of times a season and get to know them pretty well.

 

[Ian_Cook]

i thought the protocol was no flag wav at all for a miss?

didds

That may be, but a protocol is not worth the paper its written on if its not followed by everyone.

As far as Law goes, there is nothing written about how the AR/TJ will signal a missed shot at goal.

In top level RL, missed shots are waved away, and you never see a one flag up + one flag down & waving situation. If it works for them, there is no reason why it wouldn't work for us. I would certainly prefer we did it the way it was done in the past with the AR/TJ giving a positive indication of what he saw.

When you have a signal (or lack of) that means the same for two different things, that is simply inviting a cock-up!

 

[Dickie E]

That is what some people keep trying to insist on.

With some justification. Law book defines 3 recognised & approved signals for TJs and ARs. The wipe out is not one of them.

 

[Ian_Cook]

With some justification. Law book defines 3 recognised & approved signals for TJs and ARs. The wipe out is not one of them.

... and where is the example of flag down to indicate a miss?

 

[Dickie E]

... and where is the example of flag down to indicate a miss?

its next to the one showing flag down to indicate ball not in touch

 

[crossref]

With some justification. Law book defines 3 recognised & approved signals for TJs and ARs. The wipe out is not one of them.

View attachment 3466View attachment 3467View attachment 3468

But the wipe out signal is extremely useful. I do fail to understand the resistance to it that we see on this board (and in my experience only on this board...)

 

[TigerCraig]

(and in my experience only on this board...)

And in the Australian Level 1 and Level 2 AR courses ...:aus:

 

[Dickie E]

But the wipe out signal is extremely useful. I do fail to understand the resistance to it that we see on this board (and in my experience only on this board...)

please don't get the impression that I don't think it is a good idea. Because I do. But I also think that referee being closer to where the ball is likely to land at kick off is a good idea. it's just not the way it is done and you look like some kind of greenhorn if you do.

So I wouldn't do it nor recommend it until some kind of credible directive arrives.

Tell you what. I'll watch the ARs in the 2 Tests on the weekend. If they do the wipeout, then so will I.

 

[crossref]

please don't get the impression that I don't think it is a good idea. Because I do. But I also think that referee being closer to where the ball is likely to land at kick off is a good idea. it's just not the way it is done and you look like some kind of greenhorn if you do.

So I wouldn't do it nor recommend it until some kind of credible directive arrives.

Tell you what. I'll watch the ARs in the 2 Tests on the weekend. If they do the wipeout, then so will I.

But that's pro-rugby. This coming Saturday when I have TJs, one from each team, I expect and want them to signal what they think

I don't imagine they'll ask me what the signal is, as everyone knows the flag up / flag wipe signals, but if they DID ask me, then this is what I tell them to do :

- if the ball is over, put your flag up
- if the ball misses, wipe your flag from side to side
- if you weren't paying attention, or the sun got in your eyes, and you don't actually know whether it was a goal or not then PLEASE don't guess, and PLEASE don't blindly copy the other TJ - just make no signal at all, and I'll make the call myself (I watch every kick just in case)

 

[OB..]

... and where is the example of flag down to indicate a miss?

It occurs to me that in tennis the line judges DO have a signal to show that the ball was in.

 

[crossref]

other signals we all use, that aren't in the WR picture book

LINEOUT IN PROGRESS - Arm up indicates line out in progress, Arm down indicates lineout over

QTI AVAILABLE - (for AR) - flag up on its own indicates QTI is 'on', flag up + other arm out horizontal = QTI is no longer on

WENT BACKWARDS - both hands palm outwards moving as if pushing - indicates ball went backwards so not a knock on, play on)

SQUEEZEBALL - (U19 where illegal) - referee crouches on ground as if laying an egg, pushes imaginary egg backwards between legs


OK, I made the last one up, for a cheap laugh, but the other three are very regularly seen, and understood, just as the flag-wipe = missed kick is.

 

[DocY]

other signals we all use, that aren't in the WR picture book

OK, I made the last one up, for a cheap laugh, but the other three are very regularly seen, and understood, just as the flag-wipe = missed kick is.

Isn't that the point, though? It's pretty common to make up signals and, in general, everybody understands what they mean.

In addition to those crossref mentioned (well, apart from the last one), I've seen signals for elbowing, tip tackling, knocked on along the ground and I could probably think of others.
Not in the book, but everyone knew what was meant (didds' ref from earlier in the thread wasn't there), though granted, knowing what the call should be might have helped

I just look forward to the 'arse shimmy' signal discussed here a few months ago!