KO delay..what is acceptable?

[Rushforth]

It could be argued that Law 13.4 requires an opposition team to be on the field and behind the 10 metre line for a kick off to be taken

Law 7 says the match starts with a kick off, so it could also be argued that until there is a kick off there is no game of rugby so no sanction for time-wasting or unsporting behaviour can be imposed

It could be argued indeed.

If the home team were not on the pitch 10 minutes after KO, I would whistle No Side in the most literal sense.

 

[leaguerefaus]

Just start the clock at the scheduled kick off time. If they keep you waiting too long, call the game off. Too easy.

 

[TigerCraig]

Just start the clock at the scheduled kick off time. If they keep you waiting too long, call the game off. Too easy.

Thats the Australian solution - one benefit of having fixed length halves

 

[Browner]

It could be argued that Law 13.4 requires an opposition team to be on the field and behind the 10 metre line for a kick off to be taken

Law 7 says the match starts with a kick off, so it could also be argued that until there is a kick off there is no game of rugby so no sanction for time-wasting or unsporting behaviour can be imposed

I disagree, Law 4.5 clearly indicates that referee authority exists before kick off.
No referee in the world would accept player abuse or being called a cheat as they walked toward the initial kick off, Dissent is the best sanction IMO.

1st request = careless , 2nd is deliberate & gets an admonishment , 3rd = dissent.

 

[TigerCraig]

I disagree, Law 4.5 clearly indicates that referee authority exists before kick off.
No referee in the world would accept player abuse or being called a cheat as they walked toward the initial kick off, Dissent is the best sanction IMO.

1st request = careless , 2nd is deliberate & gets an admonishment , 3rd = dissent.

Agree that a yellow card or red card could be used before kick off if the behaviour is seen as dissent (but not to a coach, although you could banish him from the sideline), that isn't the issue.

BUT, I don't believe that you could then start the game with a PK or FK which is what I meant by "sanction" - happy to be proved wrong

 

[RobLev]

It could be argued that Law 13.4 requires an opposition team to be on the field and behind the 10 metre line for a kick off to be taken

It could also be argued that Law 13.4 only requires those opposition team members who are present to line up behind the 10 metre line; the only sanction provided for is for the kick to be retaken if the opposition are in front of the line or charge prematurely. Your argument would require the kick to be retaken if the opposition lined up one man short.

Law 7 says the match starts with a kick off, so it could also be argued that until there is a kick off there is no game of rugby so no sanction for time-wasting or unsporting behaviour can be imposed

Time-wasting is an infringement under Law 10, which applies to anything which happens within the playing enclosure; RR has had threads about Y/RC'ing players for Law 10 infringements before the kick off and after the final whistle. There is of course the philosophical argument about whether failing to take the field is an infringement that takes place within the playing enclosure - the effect is within the enclosure, even though the player may not be...

Another thought; if Law 10 does apply, can you YC (under 10.5(a)) each member of the team that hasn't got onto the pitch in time?

 

[TigerCraig]

It could also be argued that Law 13.4 only requires those opposition team members who are present to line up behind the 10 metre line; the only sanction provided for is for the kick to be retaken if the opposition are in front of the line or charge prematurely. Your argument would require the kick to be retaken if the opposition lined up one man short.

I quite like these angels on pins threads :smile:

The one man short issue is covered by the fact that an "opposing team" requires only as many players as are required as a minimum by the competition rules (usually 11 or 12).

 

[RobLev]

Agree that a yellow card or red card could be used before kick off if the behaviour is seen as dissent (but not to a coach, although you could banish him from the sideline), that isn't the issue.

BUT, I don't believe that you could then start the game with a PK or FK which is what I meant by "sanction" - happy to be proved wrong

If a player punched an opponent while walking back onto the pitch for the second-half, would you restart with a PK for the struck player's team? Law 13 does provides that each half starts with a kick-off, but surely the whole point of law 10.4 is that the usual rules about the (re)start of play are superseded when foul play occurs.

 

[RobLev]

I quite like these angels on pins threads :smile:

The one man short issue is covered by the fact that an "opposing team" requires only as many players as are required as a minimum by the competition rules (usually 11 or 12).

But if they start with, say, 12, which is "All the oppposing team" (Law 13.4), do you allow them to bring the numbers up to 15 when the rest arrive, and if so under what Law?

 

[TigerCraig]

If a player punched an opponent while walking back onto the pitch for the second-half, would you restart with a PK for the struck player's team? Law 13 does provides that each half starts with a kick-off, but surely the whole point of law 10.4 is that the usual rules about the (re)start of play are superseded when foul play occurs.

Good question. I probably would, but I don't know if there is legal back up (thats why I said "happy to be proved wrong")

 

[tim White]

Gents, let them know this pisses you off by all means but on the scale of things to worry about this is pretty low on the list. Perhaps you should go and get a brew and make them wait?

 

[crossref]

Gents, let them know this pisses you off by all means but on the scale of things to worry about this is pretty low on the list. Perhaps you should go and get a brew and make them wait?

i agree. really this isn't something that bothers me at all.

before the game, out on the pitch, I am wearing a watch and the players aren't. It makes sense for me to inform the cpatains that kick off is ten minutes away, or whatever.
But I don't see it as my role to go fetch late teams from the changing room.

 

[MiniRef]

Gents, let them know this pisses you off by all means but on the scale of things to worry about this is pretty low on the list. Perhaps you should go and get a brew and make them wait?

Two weeks ago, I attended a "Rugby - Let's keep it special" seminar - a new initiative from the RFU which is to be piloted. Key in this is Respect. Respect the Ref, your opposition etc.
If you fail to be on the pitch on time - especially on a cold day - then that is dis-respect. As refs, we have the opportunity to "remind" teams of the Respect message and, having re-read this thread I am now satisfied that I would start with a penalty.

 

[Na Madrai]

Two true examples from my refereeing career.

County colts' match, held on open high ground an a bitterly cold day. Home team changing rooms, 50 yards from pitch, away changing rooms three hundred yards - Billesley Common if any Brummies are reading this!

My pre-match routines are complete, both teams are on the pitch and I inform both coaches that there are five minutes to KO. Two minutes later, away team leave the pitch, heading for their changing room. I run up to the coach and inform him that I required his team to be back on the pitch for KO in two minutes and that I would not be chasing his team to exit the changing rooms.

Twenty minutes later, his team appear.

I called both head coaches - why do these teams always appear to have as many coaches as they do players? - and both captains to me on the pitch. I asked both coaches if they were aware of the advertised KO time and asked the away coach for the reason his team were not present on the pitch at this time. I asked him if he recalled my instructions to him as he took his players from the pitch. I then dismissed him from the playing enclosure for the duration of the match, my words - '...if I hear your voice or see your face, the match will be abandoned without further warning'.

I then turned to the away team captain, pointed out that it is part of the Captain's dutieS to be responsible for his team's behaviour and yellow carded him for ungentlemanly conduct. The match then commenced with a penalty to the home team which they duly kicked.

The second example was a UK Colleges sevens' tournament. Held at a club which had seven or eight pitches spread over a wide area, I, of course, was at the pitch furthest from the clubhouse. All coaches were told that it was their responsibility to ensure that their teams were present at the KO time.

One match was a favourite to win team against a very unfancied team. At KO time, the former were no where to be seen. Five minutes later we kicked off, with only the latter on the pitch. They won the toss, opted to KO, did so and scored a try. The (non-present) opposition failed to kick off in a reasonable time and were penalised for delaying the KO, try awarded. Cannot quite recall now but I think that they had a four try lead before the opposition came running over from the other side of the field and the first half was almost over.

Fancied team still won though!

Not sure if I could back any of these decisions in law but there were no objections to any at the time.

As to the colts' coach, at the disciplinary hearing, it was disclosed that he had been warned about his unsporting behaviour on many occasions and these had been reported to the Society. I was the first, however, to dismiss him. Was not present the next time I refereed his team.

NM

 

[RobLev]

Gents, let them know this pisses you off by all means but on the scale of things to worry about this is pretty low on the list. Perhaps you should go and get a brew and make them wait?

From this thread, this seems particularly to happen when the weather is bitter and the ground exposed to the elements - so the team that turns out on time and then has to stand around getting cold/soaked that is being principally affected by the other team's behaviour.

 

[RobLev]

Good question. I probably would, but I don't know if there is legal back up (thats why I said "happy to be proved wrong")

I think you'd be able to rely on Law 10.4; but I'm not a rugby referee...

 

[didds]

TC has it in spades.

Secondary question...

as the teams run out onto the field and before the kickoff Red 15 punches Blue 15. What to do?

didds

 

[MiniRef]

Secondary question...

as the teams run out onto the field and before the kickoff Red 15 punches Blue 15. What to do?

didds

Red 15 gets a card. Colour depends on circumstances / where punch landed / etc.

 

[didds]

Just start the clock at the scheduled kick off time. If they keep you waiting too long, call the game off. Too easy.

yerrss... but what about the opposition? they are being denied their match through no fault of their own. Doen in the weeks some of these guys would have taken time off of work, or paid babysitters so they can do the one thing they love at the weekend. I know the oppo are pissing them about too, but i'd wager they would still rather have SOME rugby than NO rugby.

didds

 

[crossref]

I then turned to the away team captain, pointed out that it is part of the Captain's dutieS to be responsible for his team's behaviour and yellow carded him for ungentlemanly conduct. The match then commenced with a penalty to the home team which they duly kicked.

I don't approve of a YC for that, seems certainly beyond your powers.

having issued a YC did you make them start with 14 players? Did they not complain vociferously?
how did you know that the captain was one of th 15 players who was going to start, or did you wait for the start and then YC him?